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  #201  
Old 03-07-2020, 08:45 PM
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I use a battery operated tablet to mitigate the issues highlighted by Stephen. No SMPS noise source. It is connected to my Yggy via a 1.5M Platinum somethingorother from WW.

Dedicated end point devices may produce less noise on the USB lines. But I would have to measure it to be convinced because I’ve seen some terrible digital designs from high end audio companies.

I’d also note that not all DAC USB inputs have the same level of isolation. There are multiple stages of USB transformer isolation on the Schiit Unison board. Looking at the parts on the board I count three separate stages of isolation. So not all DACs are equal. Some are more equal than others.
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  #202  
Old 03-07-2020, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
I use a battery operated tablet to mitigate the issues highlighted by Stephen. No SMPS noise source. It is connected to my Yggy via a 1.5M Platinum somethingorother from WW.

Dedicated end point devices may produce less noise on the USB lines. But I would have to measure it to be convinced because I’ve seen some terrible digital designs from high end audio companies.
There are a number of noise components that are pervasive from the use of common digital devices used in a digital front-end, e.g. routers, network switches, NAS', fiber media convertors, etc. One noise component is leakage current, which causes ground-plane noise on a DAC’s internal ground-plane.

And, here is a key point: while the isolation transformers used digital devices e.g. Ethernet switches will block DC and low-source (AC) leakage, they DO NOT block high-source-impedance leakage current. This class of leakage current is current is actually an AC current, and therefore is not blocked by ioslation transformers. Its pervasive from the use of SMPS and causes increased clock-phase noise.

This noise component was not even discovered until Oct. 2017 by John Swenson who had to build bespoke test equipment to detect it, so obtaining data for it at this time will be made available when John Swenson publishes this data at the Uptone site (I know these measurements have been a work in progress for some months now), so stay tuned.
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  #203  
Old 03-08-2020, 07:53 PM
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Here is an article that succinctly defines the problem with line operated switchers.

https://www.eetimes.com/power-tip-47...chers-part-1/#

It is from 2012, btw, so this phenomenon has been known for quite awhile. I believe it is the same mechanism John Swenson describes on his website.

In my case there is no path to create any such currents. My battery powered tablet floats wrt to everything and any common mode leakage currents it might impart to my Yggy would be based on an external signal coupling through the air to the tablet’s 14 pF free air capacitance. I have removed all nearby radiators so that’s not an issue.

There are other noise sources. For example the USB power coming from the tablet might be dirty. That noise is not common mode, and not referenced to any grounds in the Yggy, so does not have a path into downstream equipment.

There could be noise from the onboard WiFi transmitters. I don’t have a way to measure this directly, but I have run some comparisons with WiFi on and off while streaming content from the tablet’s SSD. I can hear no differences.

The notion that tablets or laptops are intrinsically inferior to dedicated end points is simply not true. The answer is ‘it depends’ and there are a multitude of interference sources in play when you connect any digital device to your lovely analog stereo system.

When you hardwire your mains powered endpoint to any DAC, you have a multitude of interference sources to mitigate. I think Uptone is doing a fantastic job building effective products that mitigate this type of noise.

This is the frontier of excellent digital playback and deserves more airtime.

Tom
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
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  #204  
Old 03-08-2020, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
Here is an article that succinctly defines the problem with line operated switchers.

https://www.eetimes.com/power-tip-47...chers-part-1/#

It is from 2012, btw, so this phenomenon has been known for quite awhile. I believe it is the same mechanism John Swenson describes on his website.

In my case there is no path to create any such currents. My battery powered tablet floats wrt to everything and any common mode leakage currents it might impart to my Yggy would be based on an external signal coupling through the air to the tablet’s 14 pF free air capacitance. I have removed all nearby radiators so that’s not an issue.

There are other noise sources. For example the USB power coming from the tablet might be dirty. That noise is not common mode, and not referenced to any grounds in the Yggy, so does not have a path into downstream equipment.

There could be noise from the onboard WiFi transmitters. I don’t have a way to measure this directly, but I have run some comparisons with WiFi on and off while streaming content from the tablet’s SSD. I can hear no differences.

The notion that tablets or laptops are intrinsically inferior to dedicated end points is simply not true. The answer is ‘it depends’ and there are a multitude of interference sources in play when you connect any digital device to your lovely analog stereo system.

When you hardwire your mains powered endpoint to any DAC, you have a multitude of interference sources to mitigate. I think Uptone is doing a fantastic job building effective products that mitigate this type of noise.

This is the frontier of excellent digital playback and deserves more airtime.

Tom


Hey Tom,
Thanks for the link, I will read it with interest.

Sounds like you've got good setup by using battery power.

What the article referenced doesn't speak to high-source leakage current and its impact on clock phase noise. That's because this class of leakage current was only discovered in Oct, 2017 by John Swenson. In fact, he had to build specific equipment just to test for it; nothing on the market had high enough impedance.

As for tablets or laptops being intrinsically inferior, here's what I've learned from my researches and experiences: any high-bandwidth CPU or GPU will put a lot of high (gigahertz band) noise; this noise can be picked up by unshielded speaker cables acting as antennas, and be fed backwards into the power amp, only to be amplified again as noise. John Atkinson wrote an article about this some time back on Stereophile.

Also, the real culprit in any type of computer is the darned switch-mode power supply. They are a big source of the dreaded high-source leakage current. What I can also say is that one of the biggest improvements I've made for my digital front-end was simply getting the music server out of the main audio rack and putting it 40 feet away.

Last, there will be a document that should be published by tomorrow or thereabouts that will also provide some really useful information about "noise", jitter, and leakage current. Can't say more at this time, but as soon as it goes live, I'll post a link here.

Good discussion, Tom, thanks for sharing. Cheers, mate.
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Lumin P1 streamer/DAC/preamp, Constellation Inspiration integrated TT: Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, EAR324. Harbeth 30.2s, REL R-305, Shunyata Alpha V2 ICs, Alpha V2 SPs, Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Omega QR-s & Alpha NRv2 PCs, segmented Altaira SG stack w/ Alpha & Omega CGCs, Everest 8000 PD. Remote Server Room: Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark Master Clock & LPS, Alita, Battle Angel, (Akasa NUC Roon Core), iFi DC Purifiers (for SMPS used for Alita & router), Shunyata Gemini combo power distributor & Altaira-type CG GP-NR hub, Venom & Alpha CGCs, Shunyata NRv14 power cords for digital components.
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  #205  
Old 03-08-2020, 08:41 PM
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I’m looking forward to learning more about this subject and reading the document JS will publish.

I have no doubt that my system will change as I learn more about all the options out there to enhance my digital front end.

I’ve done a lot of power management work lately and it is paying off in spades.

These are the good old days!

Tom
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
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  #206  
Old 03-08-2020, 09:28 PM
PeterMusic PeterMusic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post

The notion that tablets or laptops are intrinsically inferior to dedicated end points is simply not true. The answer is ‘it depends’ and there are a multitude of interference sources in play when you connect any digital device to your lovely analog stereo system.

When you hardwire your mains powered endpoint to any DAC, you have a multitude of interference sources to mitigate. I think Uptone is doing a fantastic job building effective products that mitigate this type of noise.

This is the frontier of excellent digital playback and deserves more airtime.

Tom
My technical background is weak, so I hesitate to comment--but my experience is that laptops are "intrinsically" inferior to dedicated purpose-built servers. That's why there's a cottage industry dedicated to mitigating their shortcomings--Uptone, as you mentioned, is a great part of this.

I messed around for years tweaking a Mac Mini via USB with various software fixes and add-on products, then noticed a marked improvement in switching to a Naim Uniti Core via S/PDIF. (Thanks to this thread I now understand part of the improvement was the linear power supply.)

My take is that if you're just starting out with computer audio, and you have a spare computer, that's great. But if you are in for the long haul, standard PCs are a false economy.
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  #207  
Old 04-10-2020, 08:54 AM
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I have it now. Unison USB and A2. Used unit.

PC HDMI to HDMI-In Oppo 105D. Output Oppo Coax to Yggy.

Listened for 30 Min last night to make sure no issues. Flawless.

However, my goodness, the inputs are hard to decipher as indicated on front panel. The little pictures aren't obvious to me.

I left the unit on. Looking forward to hearing more this Saturday. I appreciate the education here on what I need to do to hook up USB correctly. Not gonna jump on this just yet.
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  #208  
Old 04-10-2020, 09:02 AM
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This is a great thread and I don't want to detract. I'm interested in hearing preference of Yggy inputs. There have been comments off and on; what was preferred.

example
AES>USB>OPT>Coax
(AES being the favorite)

If no experience with that input, just leave out of the sequence.
example
AES>USB>Coax

Thanks in Advance
jc
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  #209  
Old 04-11-2020, 03:32 PM
PeterMusic PeterMusic is offline
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I have not done an A/B comparison, but had good luck with both USB from a Mac Mini, and S/PDIF from a Naim Uniti Core. On a closely related note, I did compare various interconnects, and that made a dramatic difference in sound quality. I ended up with Nordost Blue Heaven. So for anyone comparing various inputs, I recommend comparing cables too.
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  #210  
Old 11-12-2020, 03:19 PM
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On this 4Pro Media site, manufacturers have paid particular attention to home helpers, health gadgets and safety systems. Among the Latest Tech News is a line of bathroom and toilet products that are non-contact controlled. For example, the mixer, bath and shower functions can be controlled by voice commands. Some can automatically raise and lower the lid and save water consumption, as well as launch applications, play music and tell about the weather. How do you like these new items?

Last edited by bibmers; 11-15-2020 at 02:50 AM.
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