Apexorca systems

[Apexorca]

Originally Posted by Masterlu

Congrats!



Dual Gotham’s or bust!

Thanks.
Yeah! hehe. I know. When you read the instruction manual, thats very clear... just one is not enough.
It's like an exception.

[Charles]

Carl, I remember when you had these acoustic measurements done and your comments. Regarding, your new sub, you only achieve 3 dB more output with an additional sub so this will not be an issue. I am one who does not believe that two subs are always better than one. I never have. I don't see a reasonable location for an additional sub. I run my Thor full range with LP only at 30Hz 18 dB per octave roll off above 30 Hz. If you are achieving excellent integration, and it seems like you are, there is zero reason to add another sub to your system. I agree with Ivan that in many cases a second sub is desirable, but not all cases, certainly not in my case and not in yours. I have never overloaded my Thor and it is flat to 10 Hz. My XVX will produce a 24 Hz note to 114dB at 1.5% distortion and is -3db at 15 Hz, -6dB at 11 Hz. Far more important is the quality of the JL Gotham V2 bass. Does it match and blend perfectly the bass quality of your Fenices? It does to your ears so you have found the sub of your dreams. I'm happy for you.

Best

Charles

[Antonmb]

Beautiful setup Carl, and congrats on the sub. One question, is there a specific reason you have the infrawoofers on your speaker facing in instead of out? I take it they don't cause any problems with vibrations to the components?

[Apexorca]

Originally Posted by Charles

Carl, I remember when you had these acoustic measurements done and your comments. Regarding, your new sub, you only achieve 3 dB more output with an additional sub so this will not be an issue. I am one who does not believe that two subs are always better than one. I never have. I don't see a reasonable location for an additional sub. I run my Thor full range with LP only at 30Hz 18 dB per octave roll off above 30 Hz. If you are achieving excellent integration, and it seems like you are, there is zero reason to add another sub to your system. I agree with Ivan that in many cases a second sub is desirable, but not all cases, certainly not in my case and not in yours. I have never overloaded my Thor and it is flat to 10 Hz. My XVX will produce a 24 Hz note to 114dB at 1.5% distortion and is -3db at 15 Hz, -6dB at 11 Hz. Far more important is the quality of the JL Gotham V2 bass. Does it match and blend perfectly the bass quality of your Fenices? It does to your ears so you have found the sub of your dreams. I'm happy for you.

Best

Charles

I agree with you. But I have to share one comment.
Since I’v been listening very critical to low frequencies the last year booth live music and in different hifi-system I’v come to a conclusion about low frequencies.

There is a difference between actual volume/db of the bass and how it will feed the room, fill the room, with bass. A small speaker can make loud bass in a room, but there is a difference to getting loud and fill the room with bass-power. Good bass is full, extendet and big without getting loud. That’s the trick for me.
With more big membranes that produces bass, you can lower the volume and still fill the room. In a dedicated good concerthall the bass can be extendet, fill the space and be powerfull, but sublte with timbre. The more bass producing area (bigger and multiple membranes) you got in your system the more you can get ”real bass” without compensate by cranking up the volume.

So with more subwoofer you can lower their volumes/db and get more, big better bass. At least this is what I descovered. (Hard to explain, sorry)

[Apexorca]

Originally Posted by Antonmb

Beautiful setup Carl, and congrats on the sub. One question, is there a specific reason you have the infrawoofers on your speaker facing in instead of out? I take it they don't cause any problems with vibrations to the components?

The deep low (infrawoofers) are facing inwards for two reasons.
The dealer i Sweden who helped me with the installation recomendet that position.
I’v tried once to change them and thougt it was better this way.


The bass under 80Hz spread all arround (360’) so there is no difference regarding vibration in differnt angels from the infrawoofers.

[Antonmb]

Originally Posted by Apexorca

So with more subwoofer you can lower their volumes/db and get more, big better bass. At least this is what I descovered. (Hard to explain, sorry)

Also 2 subwoofers located some distance apart can help blend the bass with the main speakers more easily and offset room modes.

[Antonmb]

Originally Posted by Apexorca

The deep low (infrawoofers) are facing inwards for two reasons.
The dealer i Sweden who helped me with the installation recomendet that position.
I’v tried once to change them and thougt it was better this way.


The bass under 80Hz spread all arround (360’) so there is no difference regarding vibration in differnt angels from the infrawoofers.

Yes, the bass under 80 spreads around, but the sound wave will hit what's nearest in front of the driver first and strongest. Of course what sounds best is the final deciding factor.

[Apexorca]

Originally Posted by Charles

I have never overloaded my Thor and it is flat to 10 Hz. My XVX will produce a 24 Hz note to 114dB at 1.5% distortion and is -3db at 15 Hz, -6dB at 11 Hz.

Best

Charles

That specification is a hard one. My idea is not to say that Thor is not very capable. It is! But the specifications are a fragile thing to accept as a fact. How on earth do they measure 10hz in a way that is posible to claim to be right in any room ore in a room Thor has not been measured in.
It’s the same with my Gotham V2.
I’v been reeding many many specifications about bass during the years. My experience is that what I hear allmost never is what the specifications claims.
I’v got som friends who are involved in and developing speakers. The hardest thing is to measure bass. How is it measured, and how does it sound and measure in a room, how does it sound and measure in sweet spot? Some speaker producers says that it’s almost not posible to measure bass under 80Hz in a way that is posible to realy on. Some says something else. When there are many differnt oppinions there are often not clear and perfectly true answers.
I’v heard small speakers play very deep and big ones that does not unlike what the specifications tells you.
The room you are listening in can lower or raise the output acoustically. Not many room have a flat curve in under, let say 100hz.
Though if the curve is reasonable flat in your room and listening position you almost always heva a good textured bass but maybe with to low outpot. It’s not easy to get a realistic output in a room that does not enhance the bass acustically. Therefore a great subwoofer in such a room can play with great timbre and power without the acoustic bluring the sound and mixes with the output curve in differnt frequencies.
Quite often it’s a good thing to be able to measure the roomacoustics in the bass region in the sweet spot and compensate the frequencies power up or down to get the sound more even and better integrated in the music. Not to mention the good thing the ability to set the filters frequensies higher limit and how steep the filter sounds the best. How the fase should be. The polarity. The ability to change the db up or down on only the lowest frequencies for example <25Hz. This makes the integration with the main speakers very good.

Different subwoofer brands haw often a slightly differnt approach. I’v been trying and participated in some differnt test. Almost always I think the best integration is when it’s posible to be able to take control of the adjustment examples I wrote about.

Much power, much output from big fast woofers are important if your apeakers are big with High-end qualities.

JL-audio makes this very well, REL does it well but it’s a bit harder to integreate.
I never tryed to integrate Wilson Thor but I have no doubt it’s perfect with Wilson speakers and as you have done it. It’d just the specification that I think is hard to take as the truth outside the room where Wilson measured them. This is not ment to destroy that many speakers are good just that the specification in the lower end is a very hard take as the truth.

The specification is not without interest, but hard to interpret in your system and in your room. Better to look at how easy it is to adjust perfectly to yor speakers and room. I think so anyway.

[Apexorca]

Originally Posted by Charles

Does it match and blend perfectly the bass quality of your Fenices? It does to your ears so you have found the sub of your dreams. I'm happy for you.

Best

Charles

Thank you Charles.
Yes. If you are in sweet spot and closes yor eyes, you can not point out where the subwoofer are located. You can not hear any part of the bass that has another texture or timbre that reveals one from ther other. I think this is due to that the quality of both the deep low membrane in Fenice and the extreame control in Gotham V2. The bass from Finice blends with Gotham V2 as good I ever heard a bass blend.
I got this right myselfe to 95% the first two hours, but had help from a well known profesional to get the fiew last % just right. That took three more hours.
I got so excited about this beacuse I’v tried subwoofers son many times in different system both with professionals and audiofiles and almost always lost this great integration. Then a sub is worth nothing.
This time it was a piece if cake. Therefore I wan’t to share my experiance. If anyone else has my ”bad” experiance before I tell you... ther is a way to get this right and then it’s right it’s a blessing. A whole new level of listening experience. Just do It!

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Apexorca

Thank you Charles.
Yes. If you are in sweet spot and closes yor eyes, you can not point out where the subwoofer are located. You can not hear any part of the bass that has another texture or timbre that reveals one from ther other. I think this is due to that the quality of both the deep low membrane in Fenice and the extreame control in Gotham V2. The bass from Finice blends with Gotham V2 as good I ever heard a bass blend.
I got this right myselfe to 95% the first two hours, but had help from a well known profesional to get the fiew last % just right. That took three more hours.
I got so excited about this beacuse I’v tried subwoofers son many times in different system both with professionals and audiofiles and almost always lost this great integration. Then a sub is worth nothing.
This time it was a piece if cake. Therefore I wan’t to share my experiance. If anyone else has my ”bad” experiance before I tell you... ther is a way to get this right and then it’s right it’s a blessing. A whole new level of listening experience. Just do It!

Carl, I've had the same experience with my XVX/Thor/3500. When I purchased my new upgraded Thor, I tried my best to get Wilson to bend the rules and sell me a Master Chronosonic subwoofer for 45K. They said they couldn't but gave me an upgraded Thor with third generation X-material and a finished out base at no extra charge. They recommended this as opposed to a Wilson Subsonic at 37K. The price was no object for me. I wanted the highest quality sub for my XVX. My Thor has a sensitivity of 93 dB as opposed to the Subsonic sensitivity of 87 dB. The 15" woofers are much easier to drive than the 12" woofers of the Subsonic. My room is 40 feet long and I leave the door wide open at the rear. I don't have a rear wall reflection of any significance at any frequency. I am very happy for you because your GothamV2 successfully integrates into your room. No one can look at a room and know what will work . You can make an educated guess but that is all.

Best

Charles

p.s. My first Thor was a demo and was black. My second upgraded Thor is galaxy grey and matches my XVX. The blend between my XVX/3500 and Thor/1,25KW is seamless.