Subs for Salon2

[scirica]

What did you plug your Salons with? Barry told me to do that but I'm scared!

[Pampero]

^Hehe! I know what you mean.

I was going to make plugs for them but as you may know, Barry will probably tell you to use a properly sized towel. I tried the towels figuring I had nothing to lose. They're still stuffed in there! I left 'tails' strategically placed so you can't see them but you can get them out without sending your speakers out for surgery.

It's a lot easier to do that than to take the bases off and make plugs. Recommend you try it and then go ahead and tune to the new setup. The confusing thing is that since we're crossing them over and therefore rolling off the low end anyway, it seems like it shouldn't really matter very much, but I was taught to do as I'm told.

[Pampero]

I recently retuned my subs and Salon2s using my existing equipment including the CR1 and dual F113s. I lowered the x-over point to 100Hz and was diligent (equals patient) in aligning for phase and level. I was able to achieve an almost perfect notch at the crossover point and the results are very tight and tuneful bass that really allows you to hear the attack and all the wanted artifacts like fingers on bass strings, the impact of the stick on the skin of drum, etc.

If anybody wants more details on my settings, I'm happy to provide them.

[Rex Anderson]

100 Hz seems too high to me. Have you tried 80 Hz? Might even try 70 Hz.

I had F112's and used 70 Hz with Lipinski L-707's as mains.

I think the F113's would be happier not going as high as 100 Hz and the Salon2's have no problem going well below 80 Hz.

You have to remember, low E on bass guitar is 41 Hz, low E on guitar is 82 Hz. D below it is 73 Hz.

I consider 80 Hz the upper range of bass. By the time you hit 110 Hz you're at the A string on guitar. That's low midrange IMO.

If you look at the specs of the F113 (http://www.jlaudio.com/f113-gloss-ho...bwoofers-96137), it's flattest (+/- 1.5dB) from 20-86Hz.

It's down 3 dB at 127Hz, that's just it's natural rolloff.

[crwilli]

But Rex, what if the main speakers generate a suck-out in the 80 to 110hz region because of their placement and the listening position AND the placement of the sub is such that the suck-out is eliminated... Each room and set of ‘position’ equations are different.

In general, you are right.

[Pampero]

Originally Posted by Rex Anderson

100 Hz seems too high to me. Have you tried 80 Hz? Might even try 70 Hz.

I had F112's and used 70 Hz with Lipinski L-707's as mains.

I think the F113's would be happier not going as high as 100 Hz and the Salon2's have no problem going well below 80 Hz.

You have to remember, low E on bass guitar is 41 Hz, low E on guitar is 82 Hz. D below it is 73 Hz.

I consider 80 Hz the upper range of bass. By the time you hit 110 Hz you're at the A string on guitar. That's low midrange IMO.

If you look at the specs of the F113 (http://www.jlaudio.com/f113-gloss-ho...bwoofers-96137), it's flattest (+/- 1.5dB) from 20-86Hz.

It's down 3 dB at 127Hz, that's just it's natural rolloff.

I've tried 80Hz with less satisfying results. I agree it is counter intuitive to go higher given the Revels are rated for flat response to 23Hz (the -3dB point) and are very, very flat through the mid bass. However, they don't measure that way in my room. I can relate to your comment. It was my initial thinking as well but for some reason in practice the subs don't seem to mind the higher xover.

The precision with which I am able to locate the null for tuning phase and level has improved since the last time I did the 80Hz tuning. Practice makes perfect if you will. It's a touchy adjustment as the depth of the notch is sensitive to the lightest touch. It could be that a very tightly dialed in 80 or 70 Hz xover will improve on the already impressive results I've achieved at 100Hz, perhaps tightening it up even further.

It's not a big deal to reverse the mains' polarities and do it again at any given frequency. Given the flat frequency and power response of the Salons, I initially thought I could get away with using 40 or 50Hz and tried it there but didn't like the results at all. What the JLs do better than the Salons at LF is quite simply, move more air.

BTW, my initial settings were selected after talking with JL about their recommendations which, surprisingly favor the higher crossover knee. Also it should come as no surprise to you that everybody who knows the Salon2s recommends a lower xover point. But in the end, how does it sound in one's space?

I'll try lowering the xover to see where it comes undone but 100Hz is sounding pretty darn good. I'll try again...I enjoy it actually.... and get back to the gang as it seems I'm the guy leading the charge regarding this issue (specific LF tuning of the Salon2s) on this forum.

Another discovery I've made is that either the input (or output or both) of the JLA CR1 or the output of my C52 or input of my 452 aren't true balanced circuits. This is an educated guess based on the fact that I have to make up pretty close to 6dB of gain to the amplifier when I insert the crossover. I use the mix pot of the crossover to accomplish this as I don't have any other place to grab that gain, If I don't make it up, my preamp will in theory clip 6dB before my amp runs out of juice. I can't think of any other reason why I should loose 6dB of gain going through the JL1 so I suspect the balancing act of one or the other of the inputs or outputs.

[Karl Maga]

Lew, I appreciate you doing the heavy lifting. While I agree that one’s room will have some impact, I’m a believer that 80% or more of what you discovered is applicable to the rest - like me. So, when I get ready to add JL’s, I can start pretty far down the path. My fine Mark Levinson No. 523 preamp has stereo sub outs, so I’ll start with that though I assume I’ll end up with a CR-1.

[Pampero]

My pleasure Karl. I mean that literally as I enjoy playing around with the thing. It's amazing how altering the low end makes such a difference in the total sound. The Revels are capable of such great texture and presence. Getting the bass where you want it really emphasizes the feel of music as well as the sound.

It's been a bit of a journey getting my speakers dialed in and taken me some time to suss it out. Much of that time is of course related to my finances as the goodies you decide you want don't just show up all by themselves!

[Pampero]

I do like the crossover (JLA) but I've been thinking about that insertion loss and have a hard time believing McIntosh would supply anything but a properly balanced connector given their decades of industrial experience in pro audio. That leads me to think maybe the JL isn't a true balanced device but I don't really know and my system doesn't suffer from any audible noise. I'd still say the CR1 is a good choice for a guy who doesn't want to use a pro audio digital/menu driven device that may not have the ease of implementation of the JL or Bryston. It sounds clean and seems to have the ability to make up whatever gain is lost on the way in or out. But I still wonder about the architecture and if a hobbyist devotee would have even noticed it. I am prepared to be wrong on this one but where o where are those missing dB?

[Rex Anderson]

Get a reference tone at +4dBu (I use test CD's). Play it from your source and measure it (a DMM will read 1.23 volts). Check each output stage and see where the loss is occurring.

6 dB is 1/2 the voltage. A common issue is an XLR cable that has lost one leg. Pin 1 is ground, pin 2 is hot, pin 3 is cold. If pin 2 or 3 are off, you lose 6 dB.

I downloaded the CR-1 manual and it has both balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs. Looks to be a very well thought out and built device.