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[Chubba]

I am using a RWR Audio MCT-1 SUT.I have been told it is related to the Cotter's.

[bgupton]

Originally Posted by querstrommotor

Dear bguptonm,

talking about Koetsu means a lot more than just the SUT.

First of all - the absolute basic ist the tonearm.
Koetsu carts have a compliance of 5cu measured at 100hz.
In comparison a Lyra has 12cu, a SPU Classic has 6cu a Royal N has 8, an Ikeda 9TT has 7cu.
As you might see, we need a heavy tonearm.
Most of the cases we will see a Koetsu at the end of a SME V oder IV, Triplanar oder Graham - all these arms are too lightweight.
Also the idea to use the most common SME 3012 is not a good ides - the only heavy SME 3012 was the first series with the steel tube - all later SME 3012 are also too lightweight.

You need an arm with minimum 19g eff mass - better more, from 19g the game starts...

Imagine a Fidelity Reserach FR66S has an eff mass of 32-26g (depend on the headshell)!!!!

Maybe you read in the different forums a lot about the Koetsu sound.
In most of the cases you weill read something like that.
Indifferent bass, whooly, over emphasized and not very deep.
Great mids - to die for, great vocal performanc and also strings are rendered very nice.
Rolled off top a little bit muted on top.

All these descriptions are true in a SME V, Triplanar (lesser margin here) Graham (also lesser margin) and so on.

If you pair a Koetsu with a proper arm - you will get something totally different.
Match it with a 12" Schröder with a Snakewood or Ebony armetube andyou have a totally different story .
If the matching to the arm is nearly perfect - you get the to die for mids - they get even more precise and the rendesring is not anymore flat in the localisation - you will have a nearly pinpoint rendering, the bass gets precise and deep and very powerful - no over emphasized spectrum around 100-250hz anymore.
The top end is open and cristal clear without any hint of grain - it sounds as natural as breathing.

And if you want to use a stone body coetsu, you need even more eff mass - my measurements show that they are even e little bit stiffer - which is somehow compnesated to the larger weight of the stone bodies - but not enough.

That is the tonearm story - if you reed the Koetsu official distributors advice you will find on the pint arm mass midle heavy-heavy - that is just half of the truth.
The mark should be on the word heavy!

Coming to the amplification of such a Koetsu.

If you match it with an active RIAA stage, you have to use 100 Ohm termination resistance.
You will read also here different things - because the SME V club tries now, with an incompatible arm, which also is slow in rendering and has a thick low end (but very comfortable in adjustment) - you will read about the termination practice.
One says use 400 ohm - it is more oben than - (remember ist sounds almost dull in the wrong arm) - and yes it is true - you get more treble out of the Koetsu at 400 Ohms.
But you losse even more bass precision, and the quality of the treble is now bad - the treble does not come anymore from the source which produces it - it comes in front of the source.
Imagine a flute - the attack is now located in front of the instrument - not a good thing.
So all the rendring in the deepness of the spectrum - from front to back is now destroyed - but it sounds more open and you get more treble - you compansate a bas tonearm matching with electrical termination, a thing which never will have succes.
Because a MC cart is a feather mass system - you HAVE TO GET THE RIGHT MASS (arm) against the feather (compliance).
You cannot compensate a mechanical mismatch with an electrical mismatch....
Some claim - use even 1Kohm - the things get more worse than I can describe here.

So - now, we are talking......

The sometimes bad reputation regarding Koetsu comes only from using arms, made in the 80ties and 90ties with carts in mind, as MM carts (Shure V15) VdH, Benz and so on....

If you use the correct equipment, than you get something very special - something you won´t find exactly that way one again.
A Koetsu can sound like heaven...it has something, I would call soul and there is flesh on the bones, and the midtones are amazing, the treble is clear, and natural and you can touch it,
The ambiance rendering is also in a class of it´s own.

Coming to the SUT now.

A Koetsu has 5 Ohm inner impedance.
We let the platinum versions out of the game for a moment....

And the Koetsu puts out something about 0,4mV - maybe a little bit more ( not the platin magnet version - I know).


The original vintage Koetsu SUT used Triad capsules - they were very, very good.
The original SUT had a fixed 5 Ohm position - and the whole thing sounded amazing - they are extremely rare today - and you cannot compare them to what is available today from Koetsu - the "new" SUT sounds dull and liveless....so forget that!

A cotter - and there is not one cotter - so read the technical specs - a cotter with a matching 5 ohm position is an amazing match - truly heaven!

If you use a SPU compatible SUT the Koetsu gets too much damping - such a SUT has a 2 or 3 ohm tap (position) - so it is a little bit too much.

Such a 5 Ohm tab SUT is also perfectly usable for Lyra carts, Zyx (low output), Ortofon (because today only the Meister Silver and the A95 have really low impedance - the Synergy is another story).
So a 5 Ohm tab SUT is a good investment.
Carts like Meister Silver and A95, SHindo SPU, Ikeda, My Sonic Lab, Air Tight and so on - means really low impedance carts needs a lower figure - the need a 2-3ohm tab.

A Kondo IO needs even a 1 Ohm tab - so another story.....

Hope that helps....

But keep in mind - everything starts with a proper compatible arm....
And I forgot - such a low compliance cart need also a high torque table - so no Oracle, Linn and so on....
A heavy table, like a Micro Seiki 1500 or even better 5000, a Platineis a great match.
A direct driven moded Technics SP10 also.
And idler wheels are what Sugano San used to design the cart - so a modded Garrard 301 or 401, a Commonwealth from Australia ( great table), a EMT, Thorens TD124 all are compatible.
Newer Designs with high torque is for example a Bauer DPS - in USA distributed by Ayre.


All the best

Ekki

I have an Ikeda 407 arm on a modded Garrard 301, so sounds like I am good there with my Koetsu stone body. Just need a better matched SUT.

I'm leaning toward having Dave Slagle customize one for me. Just need to figure out the specs. Sounds like you are saying that a 5ohm tap will yield the best results, is that right?

[querstrommotor]

@ Chubba
there was something like your SUT available when Cotter was still in business. But it is not what the blue SUTs were - your device comes with loading options, the plain Cotter SUT does not - you could choose between different turn ratios - these Cotter SUTs are very, very good.

@bgupton
Thie Ikeda is not as heavy as a FR66S was - just the first series Ikeda 12" 407 had the steel tube - later they changed that - today they changed some things on that classic again.

The Ikeda is never the less a good arm - not the same level as a fully restored silver wired FR66S with B60 - but a good arm.
The drive is amazing with a Koetsu - Idler Wheel drives, like your Garrard 301 is one of the tickets to get a tight bass out of any Koetsu.
If you own a stone body - congrats - that´s a fantastic cart.

Try to gt a low capacitance phono cable - as lower as better for the Ikeda and a proper heavy headshell.
The capacitance of the phono cable is very important - more so, if you use a SUT - because capacitance is multiplied with the turn ratio of the SUT.
As lower the capacitance as less HF stress will your RIAA / SUT system receive - as less grain you will have.

The whole run from the cart clips to the RCA connectors count.
A good idea is, if you do DIY stuff, to give the Ikeda a single run - nit the Tiffany amature....
One of the bst RCA connectors in this specific area are the Eiachmann Tellur Plugs...they do not look like real high end stuff - nothing to shock your girlfriend - but they are very, vry good - low mass, lo capacitance.
The same gos for the cheap looking Switchcraft RCA plugs, Shindo uses - looks also cheap - but it isn´t cheap - it is a very sophisticated technical approach behind it.
All the heavy brass RCA connectors are crap at the end of an arm-cable - as are 95% of all the high end connectors....

Dave SUT´s ar in a class of it´s own, as the whole guy is in a class of it´s own - you can hardly spent your money wiser!!!!!!

It is one of the very seldom masters of SUT design today - absolutely stunning!!!!!!

That sounds lik a nice front end....
Garrard 301 hopefully in a very well thought out plinth and fully restored, Ikeda 407 - a good arm-cable, a stone body Koetsu and a SUT from Dave....that is a classic example of things done right!!!!
Congratulations.....and much fun listening to great music!

Greetings Ekki

[querstrommotor]

This is my Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum mounted in a Schröder DPS Custom arm, with a Snakewood armtube.
The arm has an effective mass of 22g with the aluminium headshell plate.
I use a vintage Koetsu SUT with this cart, it is made in the 80ties.
The arm uses a single run solid core 6N copper cable and is terminated with Eichmann plugs.
It has the large Reference SQ magnets and is mountd on a Bauer DPS III deck, which is also a high torque design.


Here we have the Kiseki Purpleheart, which was the companion from Kiseki to the Rosewood.
It is a different thing - high compliance and also high impedance (42Ohm).
It has, as the old rosewood had, a long body, which measures 3cm.
It needs a lightweight arm - here it is mountd in a Schröder reference SQ with a bamboo arm tube.
The arm has with the pertinax headshell plate an eff. mass of 9g.
I use the Kiseki with the 40 Ohm tab of an Air Tight ATH2A SUT.
The Schröder reference is wired wit a Nord Ost Valhalla arm cable - also a single run.


greetings

Ekki

PS - hope the pictures will show up.....

[John49]

Originally Posted by querstrommotor

... PS - hope the pictures will show up.....

They do not show up on my iPad. Anyone else have this problem?

[maril555]

Originally Posted by John49

They do not show up on my iPad. Anyone else have this problem?

Not showing on mine neither

[bgupton]

Originally Posted by querstrommotor

@ Chubba
there was something like your SUT available when Cotter was still in business. But it is not what the blue SUTs were - your device comes with loading options, the plain Cotter SUT does not - you could choose between different turn ratios - these Cotter SUTs are very, very good.

@bgupton
Thie Ikeda is not as heavy as a FR66S was - just the first series Ikeda 12" 407 had the steel tube - later they changed that - today they changed some things on that classic again.

The Ikeda is never the less a good arm - not the same level as a fully restored silver wired FR66S with B60 - but a good arm.
The drive is amazing with a Koetsu - Idler Wheel drives, like your Garrard 301 is one of the tickets to get a tight bass out of any Koetsu.
If you own a stone body - congrats - that´s a fantastic cart.

Try to gt a low capacitance phono cable - as lower as better for the Ikeda and a proper heavy headshell.
The capacitance of the phono cable is very important - more so, if you use a SUT - because capacitance is multiplied with the turn ratio of the SUT.
As lower the capacitance as less HF stress will your RIAA / SUT system receive - as less grain you will have.

The whole run from the cart clips to the RCA connectors count.
A good idea is, if you do DIY stuff, to give the Ikeda a single run - nit the Tiffany amature....
One of the bst RCA connectors in this specific area are the Eiachmann Tellur Plugs...they do not look like real high end stuff - nothing to shock your girlfriend - but they are very, vry good - low mass, lo capacitance.
The same gos for the cheap looking Switchcraft RCA plugs, Shindo uses - looks also cheap - but it isn´t cheap - it is a very sophisticated technical approach behind it.
All the heavy brass RCA connectors are crap at the end of an arm-cable - as are 95% of all the high end connectors....

Dave SUT´s ar in a class of it´s own, as the whole guy is in a class of it´s own - you can hardly spent your money wiser!!!!!!

It is one of the very seldom masters of SUT design today - absolutely stunning!!!!!!

That sounds lik a nice front end....
Garrard 301 hopefully in a very well thought out plinth and fully restored, Ikeda 407 - a good arm-cable, a stone body Koetsu and a SUT from Dave....that is a classic example of things done right!!!!
Congratulations.....and much fun listening to great music!

Greetings Ekki

Thanks for all the great info!

Any particular tonearm cable you'd recommend for the Ikeda arm?

I'm not even sure what cable I have as it just came with the arm and I assumed it was supplied by Ikeda. I do know, however, that the connectors on that tonearm cable are too big to fit snuggly onto the A23 T2 Homage SUT I'm currently using, so I was already thinking of having a tech replace the end connectors. But let me know if there is a better tonearm cable with lower capacitance that you'd recommend.

Ditto on the headshell. I can certainly seek out a heavier headshell if you think I'll get better sound from it. Any particular you'd recommend that work well with the Ikeda 407?

[querstrommotor]

Greetings to you all -
maybe I am too stupid to ad a picture....
I attached with the little icon the URL of 2 image shack pictures, there they are online...but here I see ? - apologies....

Try it once again now....AND IT WORKS!!!!!! - So I am not stupid;-)))))

So let´s have a little cart session - some of my MC carts and short descriptions...

Here you can see the Schröder Reference SQ with bamboo armtube with the Kiseki Purplehart - the Pupleheart is a high compliance cart of 16cu and needs a light eff. mass.
The Schröder has a system of variable headshell plates - you can choose of 4 different ones. The official eff. mass is calculated with the standard aluminium plate - my bamboo Reference SQ has than 13g - but you can tune that in a wide range...
Here I used a perninax plate which reduces the mass to 9g - which sets the f/res of the Kiseki to a little over 9hz, which is always my optimum....
With the Kiseki I use an Air Tight ATH2A with it´s 40 ohm tab - the internal resisitence of th cart is 42 ohm - a perfect match.



And here is the Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum in a Schröder DPS Custom Arm with snakewood armtube - this is a very heavy arm, whith the aluminium plate the arm has 22g - if you use a bronce plate it ads another 5g - so it is my heavy monster...;-)))
22g fits the Koetsu perfectly - the f/res is again around 9hz.
With the Koetsu I use a vintage Cotter or an also vintage Koetsu Step Up from the 80ties



Here you see a Ortofon SPU Royal N, which is also mounted in the heavy Schröder snakewood arm.
It is maybe the most modern SPU - and I like the sound very much.
Cinemascope meets Kodachrome....;-)))



I spoke about the DL 103 Ligno Lab in some of my answers in that thread - here is one in action.
It is a real giant killer - it needs a light arm, because the beast is amazingly heavy - the cart has more than 25g mass.
To get a not too low f/res you have to care about the eff mass of the tonearm.
Normally a DL 103 needs a heavy arm - but in this particular case it is different.
If you like a voice directly in your face - this is your cart....



Another classic is the EMT JSD5 - which we discussed earlier....
It is mounted in an Immedia RPM II - today Spiral Groove.
I use the EMT together with an old EMT SUT from the EMT turntables and the built in RIAA stage.





Enjoy the pics and maybe there are some informations you might like

Greetings

Ekki







And here

[zarkarch]

Hello there! First post here! I have a question regarding the resonance frequency of the tonearm + Denon DL103 Lignolab Bronze case.
Why, should the arm weighs 10-12gr? If the resonance frequency can be calculated by this equation: f = 1000 : (2 x π x √ (M x C)) where f = resonance frequency,
π = 3,14
M = Total tonearm system mass which is a sum of Mass of cartridge, Mass of headshell and screws and Effective mass of tone arm (all values in gram),
C = Cartridge compliance lateral in µm/mN
then with 12gr ... f=12,5hz i calculate the mass of the Lignalab denon combo at 20gr
But, if you use a 20gr tonearm... then f=11,25hz
I have a schroeder ref. arm too! Mine weighs at 12gr + 2,5gr the headshell. I wonder, if i go for the above combo should i go for a lighter or a heavier headshell? Ofcourse, a heavier counterweight is mandatory!

Spyros

[Masterlu]

Al will be right back...



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