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  #21  
Old 08-31-2018, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Still-One View Post
I copied this from a response I read. I think this sums it nicely.

The claim here is not that the digital bits on the cable (via the Ethernet frames -> IP frames -> TCP packets) are being altered. The claim, especially in regards to ground loops, is that the ethernet cable is connecting the ground of power going into the switch and the ground of the power going into the device. Thus, you have a system that has “2 grounds”. It is then further claimed that these ground loops, using the hardware given, produce a notable hum or degradation of quality in the D->A conversion, or even later in the chain in analog.

Jim,

This could be true, and it makes sense, but unfortunately it is not true. It was written by someone who does not understand how Ethernet works. So it is, for lack of a better word, bullshit.

The quoted post was 1/2 right - there are logical ways Ethernet components can impact the sound, but ground loops are not one of them.

The IEEE spec for the Ethernet cable to device physical interface calls for transformer isolating the Ethernet cable from the device internal grounds. Each of the 4 twisted pairs in an Ethernet cable is transformer isolated, differential, and floating. Just like the balanced audio interfaces we know and love.

So there are no ground loops in Ethernet cables by definition, unless those cables do not meet the Ethernet spec.

There ARE ways that Ethernet switches, cables, and devices can make an audible difference in what we hear. There are opportunities for EMI, RFI, and noise to travel across Ethernet cables and get injected into the electronics they are connected to via the surge and lightning protection components that are an integral part of the Ethernet spec. The transformers themselves also have inter-winding capacitance that will couple noise into the associated electronics. This EMI, RFI and noise will have an unpredictable impact on the attached audio gear.

There are a number of companies claiming to solve or mitigate these issues with purpose built cables and switches. They are on to something, as are the audiophiles who hear a difference between different switches and cables.

I would never say that Ethernet cables and switches can not make a difference in the sound we hear, because there are very valid reasons that they can make a difference.

Tom
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2018, 03:27 PM
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I believe the CAT 7 spec calls for terminating the shields to the metal ends on either end.
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2018, 03:35 PM
nicoff nicoff is offline
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Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
Jim,

This could be true, and it makes sense, but unfortunately it is not true. It was written by someone who does not understand how Ethernet works. So it is, for lack of a better word, bullshit.

The quoted post was 1/2 right - there are logical ways Ethernet components can impact the sound, but ground loops are not one of them.

The IEEE spec for the Ethernet cable to device physical interface calls for transformer isolating the Ethernet cable from the device internal grounds. Each of the 4 twisted pairs in an Ethernet cable is transformer isolated, differential, and floating. Just like the balanced audio interfaces we know and love.

So there are no ground loops in Ethernet cables by definition, unless those cables do not meet the Ethernet spec.

There ARE ways that Ethernet switches, cables, and devices can make an audible difference in what we hear. There are opportunities for EMI, RFI, and noise to travel across Ethernet cables and get injected into the electronics they are connected to via the surge and lightning protection components that are an integral part of the Ethernet spec. The transformers themselves also have inter-winding capacitance that will couple noise into the associated electronics. This EMI, RFI and noise will have an unpredictable impact on the attached audio gear.

There are a number of companies claiming to solve or mitigate these issues with purpose built cables and switches. They are on to something, as are the audiophiles who hear a difference between different switches and cables.

I would never say that Ethernet cables and switches can not make a difference in the sound we hear, because there are very valid reasons that they can make a difference.

Tom


Good post! Thanks for the info!
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  #24  
Old 08-31-2018, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Still-One View Post
I believe the CAT 7 spec calls for terminating the shields to the metal ends on either end.


Jim- it may - I’ll check into it. That would be bad practice from an audio standpoint for sure.

Tom
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  #25  
Old 08-31-2018, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
There ARE ways that Ethernet switches, cables, and devices can make an audible difference in what we hear. There are opportunities for EMI, RFI, and noise to travel across Ethernet cables and get injected into the electronics they are connected to via the surge and lightning protection components that are an integral part of the Ethernet spec. The transformers themselves also have inter-winding capacitance that will couple noise into the associated electronics. This EMI, RFI and noise will have an unpredictable impact on the attached audio gear.

Thanks Tom, that’s the clearest explanation I’ve seen yet of why Ethernet cables can make a difference. If transmitting music across a home network, does all the wiring in the chain play a role, or is only the last cable from a switch to the audio device critical? As an example, I have a Sonictransporter running Roon and an NAS located in a network cabinet in my workshop, connected to a switch using Audioquest Cinnamon; and Cinnamon again from the wall jack to my streamer in the listening room, but the in-wall cable in between is generic Cat5e. Would there be any value in trying to replace the in-wall cable?
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  #26  
Old 09-01-2018, 09:43 AM
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Default Ethernet Networking Cable

I need to add some info about Cat 6A and Cat 7 cables.

While most Ethernet cables are not shielded, starting with Cat6a there is an option to use shielded cables.

Shielded Cat 6 cables have a foil shield and drain wire which is terminated with metal connectors on each end. This is not a requirement for Cat 6a cabling but an option.

Cat 7a adds a shield for each of the 4 twisted pairs and a shield for the entire cable, which is again terminated to the metal shell on the connector.

These standards were adopted to reduce unwanted crosstalk in large gigabit enterprise installations. To work they require that the infrastructure switches be grounded to the racks and the racks be earth grounded with #6 AWG or thicker copper.

I do not recommend using these shielded cables for home audio installations. Here’s why.

Consumer switches and devices have wildly varying shielding and grounding configurations for their female Ethernet jacks. Some are totally unshielded, some are shielded. For the ones that are shielded, the way the shields are connected is not standardized. They may be just connected together, or to the chassis, or they may be connected to an internal ground. Consumer switches have wall wart power supplies that float, so there is no direct path to earth ground at all. That path could be through your $10,000 streamer.

So, my point is that you are way better off using high quality unshielded cables. They do not connect noisy grounds from your digital gear directly to your expensive audio streamer. If you know how your gear is implemented you may find an advantage to using shielded cable if and only if ONLY one end of the cable is grounded and that end is connected to your streamer.

Tony, given all this I don’t have a direct answer for you. My gut reaction is no, it won’t make a difference since it is already unshielded and located far away from your gear. This is speculation on my part though.

There may a corollary between Ethernet and AC mains cables. That is cables close to the equipment may matter more than the in-wall wiring. But I haven’t had time to experiment much. So this is also speculation.

In unshielded systems, the quality of the cable and the tightness and uniformity of the twist all matter because they determine how much RFI and EMI is radiated by the cable. That RFI and EMI will impact your gear in unpredictable ways.

I think that is why audiophiles have very different experiences with Ethernet cables and switches.

Sorry for the long post but this is a complex topic. There is no one correct answer.

Tom
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  #27  
Old 09-01-2018, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
I think that is why audiophiles have very different experiences with Ethernet cables and switches.

Sorry for the long post but this is a complex topic. There is no one correct answer.

Tom
Tom

And that is why ethernet cables "can" have an impact on the overall sound even when the bits don't change.
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  #28  
Old 09-01-2018, 09:51 AM
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Agree 100%
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Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

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  #29  
Old 09-01-2018, 10:27 AM
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Thank you, very informative.
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  #30  
Old 09-01-2018, 10:50 AM
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Default High Frequency shielding

Tom - thanks for the informative and detailed posts.
Excellent advice:
"So, my point is that you are way better off using high quality unshielded cables. They do not connect noisy grounds from your digital gear directly to your expensive audio streamer. If you know how your gear is implemented you may find an advantage to using shielded cable .... "

Shielding and grounding high frequencies is complex, and if done without understanding it can create far more problems than it may solve.

https://www.bell-labs.com/our-resear...ations/224100/
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