Subwoofer recommendations Fathom V2, Fathom, E subs and CR-1

[wpascoe]

Originally Posted by Masterlu

Correct!

So y'all have me interested now. My dealer has been recommending I add two f212 subs to my main listening room, along with the CR-1, for some time now. Says he's added that combination to several high-end rooms he services, and the before/after is startling.

I'm running a Ypsilon PST-100 into D'Agostino Momentum monoblocks into Wilson Alexias. I've been thinking about adding the subs and the CR-1 already, and now I run across this thread, and upgradeitis is itching something fierce.

I've already got one of the f212s in the house, in a different system. So I'd just need a second f212, and the CR-1.

Is this worth it? I listen to an awful lot of classic rock. Thoughts?

[audio bill]

There are a few issues I'd suggest you consider. The f212 subs are quite substantial, so I assume that your main system's listening room is quite large. In that case multiple subs are almost always superior to single subs, since they tend to minimize bass nodes in the room that each sub would create on their own. You can also configure them as true stereo subs if placement considerations allow you to position each close to your main speakers. If not you can still benefit from dual subs but connected as mono subs in a master and slave configuration which will still give you more even bass distribution throughout the room than a single sub would.

As far as using the CR-1 active crossover, there are pros and cons to be evaluated. If you go without an external active crossover, your main amps and speakers run full range and just have their bass augmented by the additional output from the subs. You then set up the sub crossovers to best blend in with the main speakers with as little frequency overlap as possible. When you use an external active crossover like the CR-1 you are able to limit the frequency range going to your main amps and speakers, thereby helping to optimize their performance by eliminating the added demands of bass reproduction. Then the subs reproduce the lower frequencies which they are best suited to handle. The compromise comes in since by sending the signal through the additional electronics of the CR-1 before going to your amps, you are placing additional active circuitry in the signal path of your full range signal. You have excellent and very revealing electronics, so by placing any additional circuitry in their path the sound will be impacted in some way. This is the primary trade-off that you need to consider, whether the advantage they provide by splitting off the bass frequencies from your main amps and speakers outweighs any potential signal degradation that the additional circuitry creates. The CR-1 was designed to be exceptionally transparent and JL spent several years working on it until it met their goals.

What I'd strongly suggest if possible is to get the subs first without the CR-1 and set them up as well as possible. See how that works out and get used to the sound quality. Then if you can borrow the CR-1 from your dealer you could try inserting it into your system to determine whether you prefer it with the active crossover or without it. That's really the only way to know for sure how it will work in your system and whether you feel that it is beneficial in your setup or not.

Hope this helps. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[nicoff]

Originally Posted by wpascoe

So y'all have me interested now. My dealer has been recommending I add two f212 subs to my main listening room, along with the CR-1, for some time now. Says he's added that combination to several high-end rooms he services, and the before/after is startling. I'm running a Ypsilon PST-100 into D'Agostino Momentum monoblocks into Wilson Alexias. I've been thinking about adding the subs and the CR-1 already, and now I run across this thread, and upgradeitis is itching something fierce. I've already got one of the f212s in the house, in a different system. So I'd just need a second f212, and the CR-1. Is this worth it? I listen to an awful lot of classic rock. Thoughts?

It is my understanding that a single F212 since it has two cones is similar to having two subwoofers stacked one stop the other. You may want to try moving the F212 that you have to the other room, then find the ideal location (doing the crawl test), and place the F212 there.
I have a digital preamp and was able to use it to set crossover frequencies instead of a CR-1.
I am not familiar with your speakers, but in my system (Magnepans), the subs added a lot of dynamics particularly when listening to rock music and freed my amps from handling the lower frequencies.

[nicoff]

Originally Posted by audio bill

There are a few issues I'd suggest you consider. The f212 subs are quite substantial, so I assume that your main system's listening room is quite large. In that case multiple subs are almost always superior to single subs, since they tend to minimize bass nodes in the room that each sub would create on their own. You can also configure them as true stereo subs if placement considerations allow you to position each close to your main speakers. If not you can still benefit from dual subs but connected as mono subs in a master and slave configuration which will still give you more even bass distribution throughout the room than a single sub would. As far as using the CR-1 active crossover, there are pros and cons to be evaluated. If you go without an external active crossover, your main amps and speakers run full range and just have their bass augmented by the additional output from the subs. You then set up the sub crossovers to best blend in with the main speakers with as little frequency overlap as possible. When you use an external active crossover like the CR-1 you are able to limit the frequency range going to your main amps and speakers, thereby helping to optimize their performance by eliminating the added demands of bass reproduction. Then the subs reproduce the lower frequencies which they are best suited to handle. The compromise comes in since by sending the signal through the additional electronics of the CR-1 before going to your amps, you are placing additional active circuitry in the signal path of your full range signal. You have excellent and very revealing electronics, so by placing any additional circuitry in their path the sound will be impacted in some way. This is the primary trade-off that you need to consider, whether the advantage they provide by splitting off the bass frequencies from your main amps and speakers outweighs any potential signal degradation that the additional circuitry creates. The CR-1 was designed to be exceptionally transparent and JL spent several years working on it until it met their goals. What I'd strongly suggest if possible is to get the subs first without the CR-1 and set them up as well as possible. See how that works out and get used to the sound quality. Then if you can borrow the CR-1 from your dealer you could try inserting it into your system to determine whether you prefer it with the active crossover or without it. That's really the only way to know for sure how it will work in your system and whether you feel that it is beneficial in your setup or not. Hope this helps. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Good suggestions!

[-E-]

If Bill was talking to wpascoe, I've got to play a little devil's advocate here...

I'd ask your dealer to borrow a CR1 and move your F212 into the Alexia room.

If anything, your biggest benefit will be the CR1 since you can use that to un-bloat Alexia and shift those heavier bass notes onto the sub. If you see that is the case, then you for sure know the CR1 is a winner for you. From there just pick if you would need 1 or 2 F212s.

[audio bill]

That's a great idea, -E- !

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by -E-

If Bill was talking to wpascoe, I've got to play a little devil's advocate here...

I'd ask your dealer to borrow a CR1 and move your F212 into the Alexia room.

If anything, your biggest benefit will be the CR1 since you can use that to un-bloat Alexia and shift those heavier bass notes onto the sub. If you see that is the case, then you for sure know the CR1 is a winner for you. From there just pick if you would need 1 or 2 F212s.

[substance]

E subs actually have active xovers and are all analog subs. So if you go with e subs, there isn't a need for cr-1.

V2 versions are all digital subs. They digitize the signal early on and apply low pass filters and room correction in digital domain in its dsp. So on the low pass side, it doesn't need a cr-1. Cr-1 would improve high pass side and take some stress off from your power amps/speakers. If you tune cr-1 well, it can integrate better possibly.

V1 are all analog subs, even aro operates in analog domain. Cr-1 would improve both low pass and high pass side. I prefer these because the signal is kept in analog domain the entire chain. Some claim the analog to digital conversion on the v2 is transparent enough especially in low frequencies. My personal opinion prefers all analog and deal with room correctin in parametric eq in analog as well. Pass labs xvr1 is a xover where you can individually adjust its 4 poles per output.

[shl5+fan]

substance

So buying an older version of Fathom would be ideal if I were to invest a CR-1 in my setup? Is buying the Pass Labs crossover would be better than the CR-1?

[GaryProtein]

The PassLabs XVR1 is the king of crossovers--configurable from 2-way, 3-way, 4-way and more-way depending on how many control modules you buy. I admit I am biased on this.

The XVR1 has the greatest degree of flexibility and adjustability. You will probably need assistance setting it up. All the settings are INSIDE the module. You have to open it and place appropriate jumpers to set the crossover points and slopes. The volume contrrols are on the faceplate.

You can call Pass and Kent English will help. He is fantastic.

The XVR1 couid be overkill for just a sub.