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Old 03-29-2014, 10:15 PM
dailycitrus dailycitrus is offline
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Default CA Innovation or Master or MT10 or AMG V12?

In the process of selecting a new TT and arm with a $30k+ budget (TT, Arm, Cables, ect.). What I have looked at so far:

McIntosh MT10: I am a McIntosh fan but the arm is not upgradable and CA makes it based on a lower model design. I like the floating platter and the electronic speed control. But I think its a pass.

AMG V12: the TAS review was a big plus but was undeceive on the bass performance and referenced the lack there of as a result of the cartridge used for the review. Then I noticed the founder passed away making me think this could be a one hit wonder and no upgrade path in the future. Has anyone heard this table and experienced the bass performance? Also, does the 12" arm require adjustments overtime?

ClearAudio Innovation Wood: I was heading toward this until I have read and heard from dealers this TT lacks in the Bass. Yes, it has the electronic speed control, floating platter, arm(s) are changeable, but if it truly lacks in the bass that could be a no go for me. Can someone comment on this TT and its performance on the Bass and compared to the other TT out there?

ClearAudio Master Innovation: Does this TT from CA also suffer in Bass performance and if not why? Is there value, $15k, in this design vs. the Innovation wood?

Other TT and arm recommendations are greatly welcome. I currently use vintage Tube Pre-amp/amps with ATC 150 speakers. For the TT cartridge I prefer to stick with the Benz Ebony TR with a custom Bob's SUT. I expect the TT cables will be transparent audio from the arm to the SUT to the Pre-amp.

Thanks for the responses.
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:49 PM
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There is certainly no lack of Bass with my ClearAudio Innovation Wood.
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FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) RGPC 1200(20) RGPC POLE PIG(4) JL GOTHAM SUBS(2) LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U PROJECTOR, SVS SCISSOR LIFT, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, ASC ACOUSTIC PANELS & BASS TRAPS, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A250 AMPS, C3850 PRE-AMP, DP950 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC950 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-58 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MS750(3) MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) OPPO-BDP95, PS AUDIO PPP(8) RGPC 1200(15) JL GOTHAM SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO, ASC ACOUSTIC PANELS & BASS TRAPS, FORTRESS SEATING, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1/D1 STACK, G01X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, STILLPOINTS, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) ASC ACOUSTIC PANELS & TRAPS, GIK PICTURE PANELS, PS AUDIO P10, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1 CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, FURUTECH SILVER ARROWS PHONO CABLE, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA PS8, RGPC 1200(2) STEVE BLINN CUSTOM RACK, ASC STUDIO TRAPS, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Bryston/Esoteric System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS, BIT-15(2) AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E-650 INTEGRATED, DP750 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3, CANTON REF K5, SILENZIO, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, WIREWORLD GOLD CABLES
Bryston Active System: BP26 PRE-AMP, MPS2 POWER SUPPLY, BAX-1 CROSSOVER, BDA-3 DAC, BDP-3 PLAYER, BCD-3 CD PLAYER, BIT15(2), MODEL T ACTIVE SPEAKERS, 21B3 CUBED AMPS, SILENZIO, TARGET RACK, WIREWORLD SILVER CABLES
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:57 PM
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If I had 30K to budget for a table and arm, I would go VPI Classic Direct without hesitation.
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Preamp: McIntosh C1100T/C1100C
Amp: McIntosh MC601 (3), MC501 (2)
Digital: McIntosh D1100, McIntosh MCT450, Meridian 808v6, Aurender N10 8TB, Oppo 203
Analog: McIntosh MT10, Rega RP10 w/ Apheta 2
Signal cables: Wireworld Gold Eclipse 7 speaker cables; Transparent Ref XL (MM2) interconnects
Digital cables: Wireworld Platinum 7 Coax, AES/EBU, and USB
Power: Shunyata Denali, Alpha HC, Furutech outlets, (3) 20 amp dedicated lines
Speakers: Dynaudio Contour 30
Rack: Quadraspire SVT2 with Nordost Sort Fut (6)
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  #4  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:57 PM
dailycitrus dailycitrus is offline
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Masterlu, thanks for that info. also, have you had a chance to compare the Master Innovation to the Innovation Wood (that you have)? or have you seen any creditable comparisons?

thanks
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dailycitrus View Post
Masterlu, thanks for that info. also, have you had a chance to compare the Master Innovation to the Innovation Wood (that you have)? or have you seen any creditable comparisons?

thanks
I almost bought a Master Innovation, but in the end I couldn't hear any difference.
__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) RGPC 1200(20) RGPC POLE PIG(4) JL GOTHAM SUBS(2) LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U PROJECTOR, SVS SCISSOR LIFT, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, ASC ACOUSTIC PANELS & BASS TRAPS, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A250 AMPS, C3850 PRE-AMP, DP950 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC950 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-58 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MS750(3) MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) OPPO-BDP95, PS AUDIO PPP(8) RGPC 1200(15) JL GOTHAM SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO, ASC ACOUSTIC PANELS & BASS TRAPS, FORTRESS SEATING, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1/D1 STACK, G01X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, STILLPOINTS, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) ASC ACOUSTIC PANELS & TRAPS, GIK PICTURE PANELS, PS AUDIO P10, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1 CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, FURUTECH SILVER ARROWS PHONO CABLE, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA PS8, RGPC 1200(2) STEVE BLINN CUSTOM RACK, ASC STUDIO TRAPS, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Bryston/Esoteric System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS, BIT-15(2) AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WIREWORLD PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E-650 INTEGRATED, DP750 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3, CANTON REF K5, SILENZIO, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, WIREWORLD GOLD CABLES
Bryston Active System: BP26 PRE-AMP, MPS2 POWER SUPPLY, BAX-1 CROSSOVER, BDA-3 DAC, BDP-3 PLAYER, BCD-3 CD PLAYER, BIT15(2), MODEL T ACTIVE SPEAKERS, 21B3 CUBED AMPS, SILENZIO, TARGET RACK, WIREWORLD SILVER CABLES
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  #6  
Old 03-29-2014, 11:02 PM
dailycitrus dailycitrus is offline
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Ivan/Masterlu,

that is very helpful thank you.
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:04 PM
dailycitrus dailycitrus is offline
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J3Brow,

what makes you lean towards the VPI classic direct? compared it? use it now? other?

thanks
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dailycitrus View Post
J3Brow, what makes you lean towards the VPI classic direct? compared it? use it now? other? thanks
I am just a fan of VPI. I have used a Scoutmaster for 7 years now and am very pleased with the performance. The Classic Direct has garnered excellent press and competes as best the world has to offer. Check out Tone Publications review -- awarded overall product of the year. By the way, Benz is an excellent match with the VPI arm, I have a Benz LP-S riding on my 10.5i arm.
__________________

Preamp: McIntosh C1100T/C1100C
Amp: McIntosh MC601 (3), MC501 (2)
Digital: McIntosh D1100, McIntosh MCT450, Meridian 808v6, Aurender N10 8TB, Oppo 203
Analog: McIntosh MT10, Rega RP10 w/ Apheta 2
Signal cables: Wireworld Gold Eclipse 7 speaker cables; Transparent Ref XL (MM2) interconnects
Digital cables: Wireworld Platinum 7 Coax, AES/EBU, and USB
Power: Shunyata Denali, Alpha HC, Furutech outlets, (3) 20 amp dedicated lines
Speakers: Dynaudio Contour 30
Rack: Quadraspire SVT2 with Nordost Sort Fut (6)
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  #9  
Old 03-30-2014, 01:40 AM
mulveling mulveling is online now
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I think any claim that any (choose one) well engineered high-end TT (which the Clearaudio certainly is) lacks in bass needs to be met with some funny looks. There are LOTS of ways to make the bass go AWOL in a high-end analog rig: poor cartridge/arm choice, phono stage, bad setup, etc. Or maybe even look at the speaker setup. Blaming the table is easy to do, but misguided.

I get pretty epic bass response with my Innovation Wood feeding into a Hagerman Trumpet and Bob's 1131 SUT. Cart is a Koetsu Jade Platinum; the platinums have great bass, but are certainly no bass monsters. The Trumpet/1131 pairing has the best bass response of the phono stages I've tried, and the differences between stages in bass are not particularly subtle. The tradeoff is that the Trumpet also doesn't have much of a subsonic filter, so you've got to be careful with isolation.

I'd actually like to try an Ortofon Windfeld in this setup. I had a hard time accepting the Windfeld's midrange (a far cry from Koetsu), but its bass was insane -- nimble, extended, and immensely powerful without a hint of bloat or sloppiness (i.e. analogous to the Trumpet/1131). I think the Windfeld with Innovation/1131/Trumpet would yield truly EPIC bass response.

Last edited by mulveling; 03-30-2014 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 03-30-2014, 02:41 AM
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Garrards are known for their bass impact and quality amongst there many other great qualities. I have mine in the marketplace right now, it's a stunner in both sound and look I just never get to use it (kids!) so I decided it's time to move on and downsize into something more affordable like a Well Tempered Amadeus so I can still play the occasional LP when the rare moment strikes.

Of your choices though I've heard the AMG and it's fantastic. I've heard some of the clearaudio's and they sound great too but that AMG always stuck out for me.
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