Seaton submersive subwoofers vs. ?

[Grasshopper]

I thought I'd create a new thread since I couldn't find many first hand experiences with the seaton submersive. I am shocked at all the praise online for this sub, describing it like the holy grail of bass. Claims that it is tight, fast, articulate, and powerful make me really curious.

My system is in a room around 1,000 square feet, so I feel like I am missing out on some power. I currently have one JL F113 and an earthquake supernova 15. For music, I only listen to the JL, and for movies, I have both on. It sounds good, but I want better . I'd like more impact, attack...mainly for movies.

I've read countless reviews on other forums with folks who have abandoned the f113 to buy the less attractive submersive and you'd think they found a diamond in a Cracker Jack box with their writeups.

My plan at some stage is to have a pair of matching subs that are great for music and movies if that is possible. My jl does great with music, but it leaves me really wanting in movies.

Any AA'ers out there have direct experience with the seaton submersive vs JL or comparable?

[Grasshopper]

Anyone out there with direct experience with the seaton submersive vs...?

[chessman]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

I thought I'd create a new thread since I couldn't find many first hand experiences with the seaton submersive. I am shocked at all the praise online for this sub, describing it like the holy grail of bass. Claims that it is tight, fast, articulate, and powerful make me really curious.

My system is in a room around 1,000 square feet, so I feel like I am missing out on some power. I currently have one JL F113 and an earthquake supernova 15. For music, I only listen to the JL, and for movies, I have both on. It sounds good, but I want better . I'd like more impact, attack...mainly for movies.

I've read countless reviews on other forums with folks who have abandoned the f113 to buy the less attractive submersive and you'd think they found a diamond in a Cracker Jack box with their writeups.

My plan at some stage is to have a pair of matching subs that are great for music and movies if that is possible. My jl does great with music, but it leaves me really wanting in movies.

Any AA'ers out there have direct experience with the seaton submersive vs JL or comparable?

Let me start by saying, I do not have the Submersive experience you are asking about.

But about every two years the bass fit takes hold of me and I read the various "holy wars" raging on AVS and a couple of other boards. I have three JL Fathom f113s (two as "stereo" subs for music and a third dedicated to LFE and redirected bass for movies). I use a Bryston 10-B Sub as an external crossover and a Velodyne SMS-1 from time to time for real time graphic display of changes in location, volume match, relative phase, crossover points, high pass, low pass and slopes.

Here is my two cents:

1) Poor sub placement is the most common mistake;

2) Sloppy volume match is a tie for second most common mistake;

3) Incorrect relative phase adjustment is the other second most common mistake;

4) Buying more boxes before learning how to fix the three mistakes above is the most expensive mistake you can make;

5) Trying to use subs for music without using an external crossover is an exercise in futility, unless you own nearly full range towers and uber-powerful amps;

6) There are very few subs that are good for both music and movies and the ones that do exist are expensive;

7) If your bass sounds like one note "thud" it is probably a decay problem (need bass traps);

8) If your bass is not "hitting you in the chest" in movies that is probably a location problem.

What does all that have to do with a Submersive? Simply, that you may already have the equipment to deliver what you are looking for - it may just need some adjusting.

How are your subs connected? How do you achieve Fathom for music only and Fathom and Earthquake for movies? How are you managing bass for each of music and movies? Does your pre/pro have two sets of preouts?

[jdandy]

Randy.........Excellent post with many good points that should help anyone trying to properly integrate one or more subwoofers into a music system or HT system.

The AVS and Polk forums have many posters who like to talk about Seaton Submersive subwoofers. By and large though, there isn't much chatter coming from elsewhere. Some are claiming the Submersive subwoofer is the new benchmark. I say to them, until you have experienced a pair of JL Audio Gotham's set up for LFE in a home theater or perfectly dialed into a two channel audio system, you don't have a true understanding of what benchmark really means. Of course, everyone's opinion is golden, at least to themselves. I know mine is.

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Randy.........Excellent post with many good points that should help anyone trying to properly integrate one or more subwoofers into a music system or HT system. The AVS and Polk forums have many posters who like to talk about Seaton Submersive subwoofers. By an large though, there isn't much chatter coming from elsewhere. Some are claiming the Submersive subwoofer is the new benchmark. I say to them, until you have experienced a pair of JL Audio Gotham's set up for LFE in a home theater or perfectly dialed into a two channel audio system, you don't have a real understanding of what benchmark really means. Of course, everyone's opinion is golden, at least to themselves. I know mine is.

Beautiful HT! Nicely done with class.

[jdandy]

Caelin.......That is a beautiful HT setup. It's not mine though, just a photo I found displaying a pair of Gotham subwoofers.

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Caelin.......That is a beautiful HT setup. It's not mine though, just a photo I found displaying a pair of Gotham subwoofers.

Still what a rig! I should have one so well done one day. Yes.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by chessman

Let me start by saying, I do not have the Submersive experience you are asking about. But about every two years the bass fit takes hold of me and I read the various "holy wars" raging on AVS and a couple of other boards. I have three JL Fathom f113s (two as "stereo" subs for music and a third dedicated to LFE and redirected bass for movies). I use a Bryston 10-B Sub as an external crossover and a Velodyne SMS-1 from time to time for real time graphic display of changes in location, volume match, relative phase, crossover points, high pass, low pass and slopes. Here is my two cents: 1) Poor sub placement is the most common mistake; 2) Sloppy volume match is a tie for second most common mistake; 3) Incorrect relative phase adjustment is the other second most common mistake; 4) Buying more boxes before learning how to fix the three mistakes above is the most expensive mistake you can make; 5) Trying to use subs for music without using an external crossover is an exercise in futility, unless you own nearly full range towers and uber-powerful amps; 6) There are very few subs that are good for both music and movies and the ones that do exist are expensive; 7) If your bass sounds like one note "thud" it is probably a decay problem (need bass traps); 8) If your bass is not "hitting you in the chest" in movies that is probably a location problem. What does all that have to do with a Submersive? Simply, that you may already have the equipment to deliver what you are looking for - it may just need some adjusting. How are your subs connected? How do you achieve Fathom for music only and Fathom and Earthquake for movies? How are you managing bass for each of music and movies? Does your pre/pro have two sets of preouts?

EXCELLENT post. This hit home! I really should look at an external crossover (although I am actually quite happy with the JL in music. It is connected via the preout from my c2300). I have an earthquake supernova mark V 15" subwoofer which is now exclusively on LFE duty with the one and only subwoofer preout on my home theater processor.

Your #2 point was one I was overlooking. I had to adjust the gain on the beast to 50% to level match for my new room (I moved, so my old theater had plenty of slam at 20% gain. My new room is a wide open, LARGE room). I got my iphone app Decibel 10th and level matched every speaker to 75 decibels, then I ran Audyssey. On my HT processor, I crossed all my speakers at 80hz and holy crap there was a lot of slam.

I can see how many people keep buying equipment to solve placement or setup problem. It's very helpful to have folks like you who are so knowledgable on setup. In the end, I can see how it would be nice to have a pair of f113's for music only (connected to the two channel preamp's preout via an external crossover), and a pair of home theater subs connected to the avr or home theater processor's LFE to smooth out the response. After this exercise, I don't lack in SPL that is for sure.

For what it's worth, I was previously connected both my subs into the c2300's preouts and engaged the c2300 using the pass through method from my receiver (with the front right and left speakers set to full range. On paper, I liked the outcome as I got to use all my sub goodness for movies and music as I chose. In practice, however, I worry (in hindsight) that my B&W signature 800's were sharing some of the lower frequencies that the subs were taking on and canceling some bass out. I suppose I could defer to manually trying to dial in the crossover on each sub, but it probably is futile without an external crossover. For now, a dedicated LFE sub really has no business pushing music in my system as it cannot match the finesse of the jl.

Anyway, thanks again for the response. The journey continues

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Randy.........Excellent post with many good points that should help anyone trying to properly integrate one or more subwoofers into a music system or HT system. The AVS and Polk forums have many posters who like to talk about Seaton Submersive subwoofers. By an large though, there isn't much chatter coming from elsewhere. Some are claiming the Submersive subwoofer is the new benchmark. I say to them, until you have experienced a pair of JL Audio Gotham's set up for LFE in a home theater or perfectly dialed into a two channel audio system, you don't have a real understanding of what benchmark really means. Of course, everyone's opinion is golden, at least to themselves. I know mine is.

Wow! Great picture Dan.

I've envisioned a similar layout for the theater room I plan to build. Do you see any issues with the components being so close to the subwoofer on the right? I know thee are countless discussions about vibration isolation, which would be next to impossible in this case.

If it's not as big a deal as I worry, or there is a simple way to isolate components when they are this close to the action, I may consider a design closer to this and save on my future cables.

[jdandy]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Wow! Great picture Dan.

I've envisioned a similar layout for the theater room I plan to build. Do you see any issues with the components being so close to the subwoofer on the right? I know thee are countless discussions about vibration isolation, which would be next to impossible in this case.

If it's not as big a deal as I worry, or there is a simple way to isolate components when they are this close to the action, I may consider a design closer to this and save on my future cables.

Jason.......I don't think having built in recessed equipment racks in a home theater would be dramatically impacted by speaker or subwoofer placement providing some attention is paid to isolation of components.

I think the photo above is a fine example of a very nice home theater but I would have designed it with no equipment visible, similar to what Ivan has done in his Cape Cod theater. Before the lights go down all you see is screen and speakers. Once the lights go down all you see is screen. There's no gear to be seen anywhere in the room. I would not want my line of sight to be distracted with lighted equipment in racks on either side of my screen.