Reference 5SE preamp audition

[Ritmo]

I have almost 1K hrs in my 5SE. Like others, I experienced ups and downs for the first several hundred hours. After 300-400 hrs the pre started settling and getting better. Yes, it does take the approx 600 hrs to really break in. Once the journey is completed, you'll find that this is one heck of a line stage!

[evp1312]

Concerning "ups & down", can anyone share their experience in regards the "downs" ?

From my experience during the break-in process, the system lacked highs, became less transparent, lost resolution and was certainly less lively in compare to when it was sounding normal. Same setup of course.

[Mikeoz]

Please provide an update when you can. I want to purchase an ARC Reference pre-amp in due course and any evaluation of this type is very useful as the reviews always claim the 'new' model is a significant improvement on the previous.

Based on this logic your comparison should be night and day. If not maybe I should save money and look for a tidy Ref 3.

[Bavarian05]

Originally Posted by Mikeoz

Please provide an update when you can. I want to purchase an ARC Reference pre-amp in due course and any evaluation of this type is very useful as the reviews always claim the 'new' model is a significant improvement on the previous.

Based on this logic your comparison should be night and day. If not maybe I should save money and look for a tidy Ref 3.

Hi Mikeoz,

For what it is worth, I just moved up from a LS17SE to a pristine used Ref 3. There is definitely a huge difference between the two. I have heard each of the recent Ref series (3, 5 and 5SE). There are differences, though I do think the reviews overstate the sonic chasms between them. In my opinion, the 3 and 5 are very, very similar. The difference between the 3 and 5SE is more readily noticeable. The 5SE has a more solid state overall feel (in good ways). It sounds a little more tightened up and the low end edges are more defined (may or may not be an important difference to you and your other components). Overall detail resolution is higher in the Ref 5SE. If I had an endless supply of money, I would certainly buy a 5SE. Unfortunately, that is not my reality. When you factor in cost, the Ref 3 made by far the most sense to me. Each of the recent Ref series pre's are stellar. Value and affordability are the real issues. You really can't go wrong with any of them. Just my opinion...

[RLF]

Originally Posted by djcxxx

If you haven't noticed significant improvement between your Ref 2 MKI (a much better sounding unit than the MkII IMHO) and the 5SE, then more hours on the 5SE isn't likely to change your experience or opinion. After 50-100h the improvement in sound quality in my experience w/ ARC gear rapidly follows the law of diminishing returns. The recommended 600h does provide an extended positive reinforcement schedule however!

Like you stated, I was told by the manager of my ARC dealer that my impressions of the Ref 5SE would probably not change after 600 hours on the demo unit, but I am welcome to bring it home again. He has listened to a fully broken in unit and his impressions with that one was very similar to the demo unit that the store has now.

Interesting that others have also said that the Ref 2 MK1 sounded better than the Ref MKII. That is the reason that I sent my MK1 to Steve Huntley of Great Northern Sound for the mod which cost slightly less than ARC upgrading the MK1 to the MKII.

[RLF]

Originally Posted by Mikeoz

Please provide an update when you can. I want to purchase an ARC Reference pre-amp in due course and any evaluation of this type is very useful as the reviews always claim the 'new' model is a significant improvement on the previous.

Based on this logic your comparison should be night and day. If not maybe I should save money and look for a tidy Ref 3.

I will give my final impressions of the Ref 5SE in my system and to my ears in a post below.

If were you, I would try if at all possible to listen to both a used Ref 3 as well as a Ref 5SE. I know that recommending that is easier said than done though. I really believe that home audition is upmost important, if at all possible, to see what fits in your system sonically and to your ears. Just my 2 cents.

[RLF]

I brought the Reference 5SE back to the dealer today. After extensive listening for the last few days I put my Ref 2 back in my system. Even though at first I thought that Ref 5 sounded better, I was bothered by a few things including what I felt was less bass slam, warmth, and more of a "SS" sound that the Ref 5 brought to my system. However, I could not confirm my impressions until I put my modded Ref 2 back in my system and played the same recordings that I just finished listening to on the Ref 5. Gosh, I was in for a surprise. My Ref 2 provided the warmth, bass, and the ultimate sonic feeling that my stereo has provided me after extensive tuning of my system including using The Cable Company Lending Library for wires and power cords.

In no way am I am implying that the my GNS modified Ref 2 is as good of a preamplifier as the Reference 5SE. However, in my system it is at most a sideways move rather than an $13K upgrade. Most probably in more stealer systems, the Reference 5SE would show its superiority to my Ref 2.

I did talk to my dealer today about it and he thought that maybe the Reference 5 was revealing something else in my system that is not optimal that my current preamp does not reveal, but that is just a guess as to my ears my Ref 2 seems just as revealing.

The bottom line is that I have to trust my ears which I learned early on is the most important thing that we can do in this hobby.

Once again, thanks to all of you who replied and for the help here on Audio Aficionado.

[RLF]

Originally Posted by tima

Is there a significant change in character by 600 hours? No.

Out of the box the first few hours or so can be rough, regardless how many hours are on the unit, but particularly if it is brand new. The overall direction of change takes the 5SE toward a slightly more open and refined sound. As break in occurs, tonality improves - harmonic information gets fleshed out further across the entire note, vestiges of grain are reduced and the result is a slightly richer, more relaxed sound.

Thanks. I somehow overlooked your post in my haste. I guess that your comments inspire me to take another listen to the demo again once that it is fully broken-in.

[tima]

Originally Posted by RLF

Thanks. I somehow overlooked your post in my haste. I guess that your comments inspire me to take another listen to the demo again once that it is fully broken-in.

Sure. The difference in warmth you're hearing is partly the difference between 8 6DJ8s in the Ref2 versus the 4 6H30 in the Ref5SE. The latter yields a more neutral character with a bit less grain which may account for your description of a more solid-state sound. Conrad Johnson tried making the same tube switch starting with the Premier 140 amp and the ACT2 line stage and ended up going back to 6DJ8s because their users expected more warmth than the (then) new models were giving. Imo, ARC did a much better job with the 6H30 and they aren't going back.

Break-in won't make the 5SE warmer but, as noted, with more time on it there will be slightly more harmonic information which lends to a richer sound with a bit more resolution and open ease-ful character. The change is subtle when you listen day by day. For me without looking for it there came a time I simply realized how gorgeous the thing sounded. I think it does like a good 45-60 minute warm-up period.

Your dealer could be right - context makes a difference and the 5SE is pretty darn revealing. But you've got it exactly right - trust your ears.

[RLF]

Originally Posted by tima

Sure. The difference in warmth you're hearing is partly the difference between 8 6DJ8s in the Ref2 versus the 4 6H30 in the Ref5SE. The latter yields a more neutral character with a bit less grain which may account for your description of a more solid-state sound. Conrad Johnson tried making the same tube switch starting with the Premier 140 amp and the ACT2 line stage and ended up going back to 6DJ8s because their users expected more warmth than the (then) new models were giving. Imo, ARC did a much better job with the 6H30 and they aren't going back. Break-in won't make the 5SE warmer but, as noted, with more time on it there will be slightly more harmonic information which lends to a richer sound with a bit more resolution and open ease-ful character. The change is subtle when you listen day by day. For me without looking for it there came a time I simply realized how gorgeous the thing sounded. I think it does like a good 45-60 minute warm-up period. Your dealer could be right - context makes a difference and the 5SE is pretty darn revealing. But you've got it exactly right - trust your ears.

Thanks! I think that you hit the nail on the head regarding the warmth issue with the different tubes. I am still puzzled that I have slightly more bass and slam on my Ref 2? Maybe it's the mods?

I will bring home the Ref 5 again at a latter date and perhaps try a few other power cords and ICs too which may change its sonic character a little.

I must admit that the Ref5 sounded terrific on many of my recordings.