Shindo Giscours internal phono stage SMOKES the ARC Ref Phono 2 !

[Jerome W]

BTW there is no multiple loads options on the Giscours to choose. Yet, the sound falls into place in a glorious way.
Keep It Simple Sir !

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[cmalak]

Jerome...just checking Glad you have found the sound youa re looking for in the Giscours Good luck with the sale of the Ref Phono 2.

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by cmalak

Jerome...just checking Glad you have found the sound youa re looking for in the Giscours Good luck with the sale of the Ref Phono 2.

Thanks buddy !
With all the things I said on the Ref 2 here, I may have some trouble to sell it on AA ....

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[Alberto]

Originally Posted by Jérôme W

Alberto,

I have to respectfully disagree here.
We have had a few pieces of gear in common together. I believe that we have the same tastes.
I do not put the same meaning as you do behind the word "delicious".
Your system is not " warm" in the meaning of " colored". It is warm and delicious because this is just how real music is.
I have now a pretty good knowledge of Shindo electronics, compared to Mc, Manley, ARC and so on to testify that Shindo is indeed VERY NEUTRAL.
Your Tannoy speakers are also extremely neutral.
So I wonder how come your system could be less " neutral " than an ARC REFERENCE system.
But Shindo sounds more like real music.
The Giscours phonostage gives much more details and has a much higher transparency than the REF 2. Quite the opposite indeed. The Shindo sound is more neutral than the ARC one. It is closer to the performance.
Does it sound delicious ? You bet !
Music is delicious !

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I can't disagree with what you say Jerome (about it sounding more like music.) I was a bit sloppy in my explanation or, rather, I oversimplified what I really believe (and hear.)

Here's my refinement. If it makes little sense it's because it's very hard to put into words what we each - subjectively - hear.

The Shindo sounds more like music but some systems sound more like the recording of that music.

In other words. The recording process seems to steal something from the performance. The recordings reflect that.

Some systems that are more accurate (let's say "reference") are accurate to the recording - they play back what's on the recording with great neutrality.
However, since the recording process took something I can't quite define away from the live performance, they can sound more sterile.

Other systems somehow - don't ask me how - seem to add that missing component to the music that was subtracted during the recording process. In that sense, they are more accurate to the music than to the recording.

I've "proven" this to myself, by choosing - time and again - single ended amplifiers with 10 to 100X more distortion than some reference amplifiers with demonstrably lower (near zero) distortion.

I am not trying to convince anyone since all of this is very subjective, but there are clearly two types of neutrality: neutral with respect to the actual music and neutral with respect to the recording of that music.

I know this sounds like hand-waving hocus-pocus, it's not a fully formed argument or position, nor a final one* (I have other theories) just my experience and my tentative speculative explanation for that experience.

Alberto

* Another possible explanation is that some components have a signal path that is soooooo complicated that they introduce some kind of "distortions" in the time/phase/xyz/abc/who-knows domain that we can't measure with instruments yet, but that our ears and brains can detect. While they measure perfectly on some metrics they do unmeasurable, literally, damage to other attributes of the music.

The signal path of my Shindos is painfully simple. I believe the sound goes through 1/10th the number of components and connections (soldering) than some of my previous ones.

[PHC1]

Jerome, you must try the SUT. I went through the same experience as you including the REF2 Phono and Shindo and adding a SUT to Shindo.... I also have that Denon cart that I used.

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by Alberto

I can't disagree with what you say Jerome (about it sounding more like music.) I was a bit sloppy in my explanation or, rather, I oversimplified what I really believe (and hear.)

Here's my refinement. If it makes little sense it's because it's very hard to put into words what we each - subjectively - hear.

The Shindo sounds more like music but some systems sound more like the recording of that music.

In other words. The recording process seems to steal something from the performance. The recordings reflect that.

Some systems that are more accurate (let's say "reference") are accurate to the recording - they play back what's on the recording with great neutrality.
However, since the recording process took something I can't quite define away from the live performance, they can sound more sterile.

Other systems somehow - don't ask me how - seem to add that missing component to the music that was subtracted during the recording process. In that sense, they are more accurate to the music than to the recording.

I've "proven" this to myself, by choosing - time and again - single ended amplifiers with 10 to 100X more distortion than some reference amplifiers with demonstrably lower (near zero) distortion.

I am not trying to convince anyone since all of this is very subjective, but there are clearly two types of neutrality: neutral with respect to the actual music and neutral with respect to the recording of that music.

I know this sounds like hand-waving hocus-pocus, it's not a fully formed argument or position, nor a final one* (I have other theories) just my experience and my tentative speculative explanation for that experience.

Alberto

* Another possible explanation is that some components have a signal path that is soooooo complicated that they introduce some kind of "distortions" in the time/phase/xyz/abc/who-knows domain that we can't measure with instruments yet, but that our ears and brains can detect. While they measure perfectly on some metrics they do unmeasurable, literally, damage to other attributes of the music.

The signal path of my Shindos is painfully simple. I believe the sound goes through 1/10th the number of components and connections (soldering) than some of my previous ones.

Understood now Alberto and I fully agree !
Great great post !

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[Alberto]

Originally Posted by Jérôme W

Understood now Alberto and I fully agree !
Great great post !

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Couple more thing I should add ...

Another, subjective, example of accurate vs. realistic is to be found in videos.

Somehow, the highest resolution televisions - with incredible specs in terms of resolution, lines, contrast, etc., - have reached the point where, to me, they make everything look fake and "plasticky". The newspersons on some of these sets look as if they are computer generated. I know that what I am seeing is more accurate, but it sure looks less realistic.

Same with photography. Somehow, super-high-res digital photos will often look less realistic and natural than good ol' film - or even other digital photos with less resolution.

Finally, the perennial debate of vinyl sounding more like "the real thing" than digital, is another example where a technology with so many measurable forms of distortions sounds more realistic and more "like music" than some of the best hi-res recordings.

Bottom line, there are a lot of precedents for more "accurate" not mapping directly into more "realistic" whatever that means to each person.

Alberto

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by Alberto

Couple more thing I should add ...

Another, subjective, example of accurate vs. realistic is to be found in videos.

Somehow, the highest resolution televisions - with incredible specs in terms of resolution, lines, contrast, etc., - have reached the point where, to me, they make everything look fake and "plasticky". The newspersons on some of these sets look as if they are computer generated. I know that what I am seeing is more accurate, but it sure looks less realistic.

Same with photography. Somehow, super-high-res digital photos will often look less realistic and natural than good ol' film - or even other digital photos with less resolution.

Finally, the perennial debate of vinyl sounding more like "the real thing" than digital, is another example where a technology with so many measurable forms of distortions sounds more realistic and more "like music" than some of the best hi-res recordings.

Bottom line, there are a lot of precedents for more "accurate" not mapping directly into more "realistic" whatever that means to each person.

Alberto

Wow !
You're in great shape my friend.
An other great write up.
I agree fully.

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[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Jerome, you must try the SUT. I went through the same experience as you including the REF2 Phono and Shindo and adding a SUT to Shindo.... I also have that Denon cart that I used.

Not so sure Serge.
What would be the use of the MC input then ?
I think that the Masseto does not play in the same league as the Giscours.

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[kev313]

I think the step ups might be the same. Not sure. I personally think it would be hard to improve of the Shindo mc step up if you use an SPU unless you step up to the A23 Hommage. When I use my 103, however, I switch to the Altec 4722 based external step up.