Transparent Audio PIR exposed

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by Elberoth

Grant,

Thank you for posting the link to the 2004 Shunyata page. At least everyone can now compare the marketing slogans to the open Hydra 6 for himself.

On your web page, you boldly claimed 'no point-point wiring':

This is plain and simple. No ifs and buts. It doesn't say 'does not include AC inlet wiring', or 'does not include circuit breaker-duplex outlets wiring', or 'does not include duplex outlets interconnecting wiring' - nothing. Reading those words, the customer has the right to expect that ALL point-point wiring was removed in favour of solid buss bars.

Now, this is what I found inside the Hydra 6:



Everything is almost entirely hardwired ! The exact opposite ! To tell you the truth, If I wasn't really watchful, I wouldn't probably even have noticed those tiny 'solid silver power distribution busses' !

That 'solid silver power distribution buss' is in fact a tiny piece of sth which looks like copper (!) connecting duplex outlets together. Everything else is point-point wiring !


OK, but lets move on.

There is another claim, that I just noticed that is also far from the truth - 'each outlet individually filtered':

actice, outlets are filtered in pairs, as there is a single common capacitor for each duplex outlet ! (the cap is that black square object behind the copper *ahem* silver buss bars)

To claim that 'each outlet is individually filtered', you would have to put a cap next to EACH outlet, link the Audience is doing:

In other words, for 6 outlets you would have to use 6 capacitors, not 3.

Regarding the element count that form the Venom filter. Indeed, the 2004 web page describes them as 5-element, and on 2005 web page the Venom filter is described as 10-element. It seems that the the specs on all Hydras has changed in 2005, from Hydra 2 to Hydra 8.

As you are such an open company and proudly display the innards of your products during the shows (your own words), me - and I guess many other audiophiles as well - would be much relieved if you publish an image of 2005 or later Hydra 6 to show us the differencies and back up those claims.

Also, as the model designation didn't change, I think you owe it to the owners, to you publish the serial # for each Hydra model after which the design change took place, so that everyone could verify if he has say Hydra 2 mk I or Hydra 2 mk II (improved).

Regarding serial numbers, anyone can call Shunyata to find out which serial number corresponds to which design iteration of Hydras if they are inclined to do so. They are very, very receptive to phone calls and technical inquiries. My guess is the majority of owners are not inclined to so because they are perfectly happy with the way their Shunyata products sound.

[GrantS]

Hi Steve,

The new generation Hydras, other than the passive concept behind the design, are entirely different products than the original Hydra models dating back to 2000.

All the EU Hydras have to be more elaborate in terms of the buss structure because each outlet is a single and not a duplex --and the connections are different. The schuko is a superior performance outlet to US as they are independent of one another. In terms of number of filters and size of the noise-isolation chambers etc the US and EU Hydras are identical.

The Triton you have pictured from the Munich show, shows the two stacked filter networks at the bottom of the photo. They are within the black boxes stacked near the IEC. Each network has 30 micro-filters, each no larger than half a pin-head and mounted on a pcb. There are 60 in total in the Triton (2 boards), 30 in the Talos and Hydra Alphas.

The elaborate buss system you see in the top photo creates a zero-point for electrical contact and eliminates all point to point wiring --that would normally come from the outlets. Each outlet is independent in the schuko units.

The filter networks are computer modeled(developed) to address the specific frequencies of noise that commonly exist on the power line and more importantly, the noise generated and shared by component power supplies. The filters are NOT traditional capacitors and do not behave in the same way. Currently we are the only company using these type of filter elements.

There are no specific outlet designations at all since the networks and buss function in tandem with regards to noise filtration. The intention is to reduce all points of peak current resistance, minimize reactance and provide better (than previous models) component to component noise isolation. There is more information in our tech section on the web and I can fill in more via e-mail if you like.

If you have specific questions, I would prefer you sent them to me so I don't use up public board space or risk missing your question. I cannot visit here daily due to my schedule and travel.

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research

[Elberoth]

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Regarding serial numbers, anyone can call Shunyata to find out which serial number corresponds to which design iteration of Hydras if they are inclined to do so. They are very, very receptive to phone calls and technical inquiries. My guess is the majority of owners are not inclined to so because they are perfectly happy with the way their Shunyata products sound.

In my opinion IF indeed there was a design change, Shunyata should have no problems with publishing those numbers. That would spare them a tons of work - afterall, publishing 4 serial numbers (one for each Hydra model) is MUCH less time consuming than answering dosens/hunderds of phone calls and emails.

I recall a Stereophile Genesis Digital Lens review back in 1994 or 5, where RH published a serial # after which a new input receiver was fitted. That allowed Genesis customers to easily learn, if they have the most current model.

Saying 'call us, and then we will tell you' would indicate that there is certain lack of transparency on Shunyata part, as if there was sth to hide.

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by Elberoth

In my opinion IF indeed there was a design change, Shunyata should have no problems with publishing those numbers. That would spare them a tons of work - afterall, publishing 4 serial numbers (one for each Hydra model) is MUCH less time consuming than answering dosens/hunderds of phone calls and emails.

I recall a Stereophile Genesis Digital Lens review back in 1994 or 5, where RH published a serial # after which a new input receiver was fitted. That allowed Genesis customers to easily learn, if they have the most current model.

Saying 'call us, and then we will tell you' would indicate that there is certain lack of transparency on Shunyata part, as if there was sth to hide.

Sorry, but I don't agree. Grant has been completely forthcoming about the differences in the design iterations. And, if I were to hazard a guess, they're not receving large nos. of phone calls from customers asking about the relationship between design revs and serial numbers because most folks don't care nuances of details about wiring or filter networks; they just care that Shunyata products sound and perform well. I can tell you from several phone conversations I've had that Shunyata is completely open and forthcoming about their products. My customer service experiences with them have been exemplary.

[Elberoth]

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Sorry, but I don't agree. Grant has been completely forthcoming about the differences in the design iterations. And, if I were to hazard a guess, they're not receving large nos. of phone calls from customers asking about the relationship between design revs and serial numbers; most folks don't care; they just care that the products sound and perform well.

They don't, as the problem wasn't probably discussed before.

And if Grant is so forthcoming about the differences, why not publish the images and the serial numbers. There are only 4 of them !

And, as if you hadn't noticed - this discussion is not about the quality of Shunyata products (which are great, BTW). What we are discussing here is marketing misrepresentation & inventive slogans that mean nothing.

[Jerome W]

I just read the whole thread and Wow, the least I can say is that there is no boring here ! That is the war ! .
Sorry to say this to Shunyata fans, but this Hydra 6 just looks like a star grounding system to get rid of ground loops. Moreover, one filter for 2 components just does not do it for me.
My personal power filter has been done on purpose by an EDF ( Electricité de France ) engineer in France and looks closer to the Gigawatt than the Shunyata, with individual filtering in 3 separate boxes ( 12 Schaffner filters total // 2 separate boxes for the monoblocks) and a star ground design ( all the components share the ground of the preamp ). It cost me the price of a Hydra 8 in France but now that I see what's in the Hydra, I think that I had a wonderful deal !
And mine is point to point soldered !


Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[Jerome W]

An other comment about the Hydra.
All this "stuff" could hold in a power bar. Why the need for a chassis ?

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[GrantS]

Adam,

You are displaying a photo of an very early European model Hydra. I am not certain of the year just from looking at it. The dots below the name would indicate it is a very early model, as in prior to 2004, but I can't be sure. Obviously, the unit was made long enough ago that I would have to have the factory check to provide an accurate record. A serial number would obviously help.

However, I don't get the sense this is for your personal use or benefit. It looks more like you are eager for public argument and a game of "gotcha". If you are concerned about your unit's specifics, we are easy to reach.

I explained what point to point wiring means with regards to power products. There are no options to remove electrical input wiring in anything. I am not sure we have early internal EU product photos as we did not exhibit in Europe in the early 2000's. None the less, your words and tone look more as if they are intended for continuing a conflict, not to have a few simple questions answered. I highly doubt any answer I offer will be sufficient no matter how much is explained going back what, 8 to 9 years now?

As was written above, we offer customers the service of checking serial numbers and giving details of their unit's specifics. It is true that in the first four years of the Hydra models production, running changes were made to improve the units without changing the model designations. None of these updates were deemed significant enough to change to a mk 2, mk 3 or mk 7 , as some companies seem prefer. That was our choice and we'll accept that. Caelin is a researcher by trade and the design concept was new in 2000.

I am sure some customers appreciated that we didn't change model designations and others, like yourself, are angry about it. As it stands, we did not change model designations for the Hydras 2, 4 and 6 from 2001 through last year; 10 years.

There was a significant change to the models (better outlets and buss) in late 2005. We have no problem disclosing any of this to people with questions about their specific units and I have done this for customers for many years. Going from 2 to 7 or 10 element filters was not considered a "significant" change (to Caelin) but we reserved the right to make those changes and we did publish spec changes when they were made--without news releases or running update bulletins. All manufacturers have the right to improve their products. Some love to designate and publish every tweak, others move quietly forward.

I don't mind responding to reasonable questions and helping with individual concerns, but you appear to be interested in more than that with multiple challenges, posting pictures and pointing fingers.

You are free to contact me directly with your serial number and where you purchased the unit. I can reference the details through our factory and get you specific information as to the year that was made and the associated details of it's construction. Outside of that, given your comments, I'm not sure all this back and forth gets anything accomplished other than using up a lot of forum space and time.

Grant
Shunyata Research

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by GrantS

Adam,

You are displaying a photo of an very early European model Hydra. I am not certain of the year just from looking at it. The dots below the name would indicate it is a very early model, as in prior to 2004, but I can't be sure. Obviously, the unit was made long enough ago that I would have to have the factory check to provide an accurate record. A serial number would obviously help.

However, I don't get the sense this is for your personal use or benefit. It looks more like you are eager for public argument and a game of "gotcha". If you are concerned about your unit's specifics, we are easy to reach.

I explained what point to point wiring means with regards to power products. There are no options to remove electrical input wiring in anything. I am not sure we have early internal EU product photos as we did not exhibit in Europe in the early 2000's. None the less, your words and tone look more as if they are intended for continuing a conflict, not to have a few simple questions answered. I highly doubt any answer I offer will be sufficient no matter how much is explained going back what, 8 to 9 years now?

As was written above, we offer customers the service of checking serial numbers and giving details of their unit's specifics. It is true that in the first four years of the Hydra models production, running changes were made to improve the units without changing the model designations. None of these updates were deemed significant enough to change to a mk 2, mk 3 or mk 7 , as some companies seem prefer. That was our choice and we'll accept that. Caelin is a researcher by trade and the design concept was new in 2000.

I am sure some customers appreciated that we didn't change model designations and others, like yourself, are angry about it. As it stands, we did not change model designations for the Hydras 2, 4 and 6 from 2001 through last year; 10 years.

There was a significant change to the models (better outlets and buss) in late 2005. We have no problem disclosing any of this to people with questions about their specific units and I have done this for customers for many years. Going from 2 to 7 or 10 element filters was not considered a "significant" change (to Caelin) but we reserved the right to make those changes and we did publish spec changes when they were made--without news releases or running update bulletins. All manufacturers have the right to improve their products. Some love to designate and publish every tweak, others move quietly forward.

I don't mind responding to reasonable questions and helping with individual concerns, but you appear to be interested in more than that with multiple challenges, posting pictures and pointing fingers.

You are free to contact me directly with your serial number and where you purchased the unit. I can reference the details through our factory and get you specific information as to the year that was made and the associated details of it's construction. Outside of that, given your comments, I'm not sure all this back and forth gets anything accomplished other than using up a lot of forum space and time.

Grant
Shunyata Research

Grant,

First welcome to AA !
It is very brave of you to come to our level and explain your products. It takes a lot of time and energy and this should be respected at the highest point.
Maybe you could post a "nudie" of a current Hydra 8 ?
I wish your products could have more decent prices here in France.
I'm highly interested in your power cords. But not at the french's price !

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by GrantS

Adam,

You are displaying a photo of an very early European model Hydra. I am not certain of the year just from looking at it. The dots below the name would indicate it is a very early model, as in prior to 2004, but I can't be sure. Obviously, the unit was made long enough ago that I would have to have the factory check to provide an accurate record. A serial number would obviously help.

However, I don't get the sense this is for your personal use or benefit. It looks more like you are eager for public argument and a game of "gotcha". If you are concerned about your unit's specifics, we are easy to reach.

I explained what point to point wiring means with regards to power products. There are no options to remove electrical input wiring in anything. I am not sure we have early internal EU product photos as we did not exhibit in Europe in the early 2000's. None the less, your words and tone look more as if they are intended for continuing a conflict, not to have a few simple questions answered. I highly doubt any answer I offer will be sufficient no matter how much is explained going back what, 8 to 9 years now?

As was written above, we offer customers the service of checking serial numbers and giving details of their unit's specifics. It is true that in the first four years of the Hydra models production, running changes were made to improve the units without changing the model designations. None of these updates were deemed significant enough to change to a mk 2, mk 3 or mk 7 , as some companies seem prefer. That was our choice and we'll accept that. Caelin is a researcher by trade and the design concept was new in 2000.

I am sure some customers appreciated that we didn't change model designations and others, like yourself, are angry about it. As it stands, we did not change model designations for the Hydras 2, 4 and 6 from 2001 through last year; 10 years.

There was a significant change to the models (better outlets and buss) in late 2005. We have no problem disclosing any of this to people with questions about their specific units and I have done this for customers for many years. Going from 2 to 7 or 10 element filters was not considered a "significant" change (to Caelin) but we reserved the right to make those changes and we did publish spec changes when they were made--without news releases or running update bulletins. All manufacturers have the right to improve their products. Some love to designate and publish every tweak, others move quietly forward.

I don't mind responding to reasonable questions and helping with individual concerns, but you appear to be interested in more than that with multiple challenges, posting pictures and pointing fingers.

You are free to contact me directly with your serial number and where you purchased the unit. I can reference the details through our factory and get you specific information as to the year that was made and the associated details of it's construction. Outside of that, given your comments, I'm not sure all this back and forth gets anything accomplished other than using up a lot of forum space and time.

Grant
Shunyata Research

+1.