Reference 3

[C2300MC275]

Hi guys,

I have always lusted for an Audio Research preamp - thE soundstage depth and width is unprecedented ime. Anyway, I am running Focal Maestros powered by Krell 750mcx's. Front end is VPI classic run balanced into BMC MCCI phono. The only thing I want from my system is a touch more midrange warmth and extra timbral magic with orchestral strings in particular.

I am sure the ref 3 will suit my needs and budget as the ref 5 is a lot more. Just wanted to seek your expertise before I plunge forth - do you think the ref 3 is suitable considering the above and is there anything I should know about buying a used one. Do caps go and are they easy to replace? Any wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

[cma29]

If you buy the Ref 3 used for a good price you can use it for a few months to really see if you like it.

If you do, great. Keep it to enjoy.

If you don't, you can sell it for close to your purchase price and break even.

Not much downside risk to a transaction like this I think.

[phunge]

I have a ref3 limited edition, that I use with focal alto utopia and boulder 1060 amp. It is a really stellar piece. I also heard it several times with focal Stella utopias. I think the combo of tube linestage with solid state amps is a winner. Just a touch of warmth and sweetness in the midrange. The ref3 is also impressively silent, used with all balanced cables I can really notice the beautifully black background. Highly recommended!

[Alki]

You do not indicate what your current pre is.

I have no direct experience with ARC, Krell, and Focal, but have heard several ARC pre amps with focal and other solid state amps.

The Focal's already have a nice midrange but the REF 3 should provide the extra warmth you desire. Would not totally discount the LS27 and would put it in the same breath as the REF 3. There has been discussions about the two in a previous thread. In short the sound stage on the REF 3 is wider but the LS27 is a lot quicker. The LS27 is also quite a bit newer and a current product.

The REF 3 is a fine piece and as previously indicated by cma29 you could resell it and get most if not all your funds back if it is not what you desire.

As for service ARC is top notch. They are still servicing their first pre amps, thus if the REF 3 required service there will be no issues.

If you are in a larger center you may be able to find one for audition.

I have owned in the past and currently own an ARC pre thus I may be opinionated on this question. IMO ARC makes the best sounding pre amps there is; to me anyway.

[C2300MC275]

Originally Posted by Alki

You do not indicate what your current pre is.

I have no direct experience with ARC, Krell, and Focal, but have heard several ARC pre amps with focal and other solid state amps.

The Focal's already have a nice midrange but the REF 3 should provide the extra warmth you desire. Would not totally discount the LS27 and would put it in the same breath as the REF 3. There has been discussions about the two in a previous thread. In short the sound stage on the REF 3 is wider but the LS27 is a lot quicker. The LS27 is also quite a bit newer and a current product.

The REF 3 is a fine piece and as previously indicated by cma29 you could resell it and get most if not all your funds back if it is not what you desire.

As for service ARC is top notch. They are still servicing their first pre amps, thus if the REF 3 required service there will be no issues.

If you are in a larger center you may be able to find one for audition.

I have owned in the past and currently own an ARC pre thus I may be opinionated on this question. IMO ARC makes the best sounding pre amps there is; to me anyway.

Hi,

I have been using a basic Rotel from my second system and a Mark Levinson 326.

[Alki]

Originally Posted by C2300MC275

Hi,

I have been using a basic Rotel from my second system and a Mark Levinson 326.

The Ref 3 will be significant over the Rotel. The Levinson is a nice SS Pre and I have compared it directly to the ARC REF 2, ARC REF 5SE, and ARC LS27. All in the same day with the only change in the system being the Preamp.

Just to state I will probably never own a SS Pre again for two channel. It is also unlikely I will ever not own an ARC Pre. That put out of the way I preferred all of the above noted Preamps over the Levinson. The number one reason was the overall tube sound and warmth. I also thought the sound stage was wider especially with the REF 5SE, this could also be because of my tube sound bias and was paying more attention because I was into the music more.

I just read your post in the other thread that indicates you have a line into a decent deal on a REF 3. I would try it as it would not cost you much if anything to reverse course and get out should it not be your cup of tea.

It could also be that you may want more of what you hear and wonder if the REF 5SE, REF 40, or even REF 10 can offer more. Then you do it all over again. I think the REF 3 at a good price offers you a good entry point to give ARC a try.

Just as a side note I have heard the Levinson No. 52 Pre and it was pretty good but still desire the ARC tube sound.

[bvdiman]

Many years ago, I owned a REF3 for a couple of years - traded-in a VTL7.5.

Used with 3 different amps (FMA 611, Gryphon Antileon Signature, ARC REF600mkI/III), I must say that the VTL was overall the better pre- clearer, more palpable/3D, better transient and low end. Sound staging/placements may have been on par with slight edge to REF3.

Upon initial comparison, REF3 was slightly veiled and slow which I had hoped would improved after break-in. Coming from a number of ARC pre's in the past, and also dearly looking for a matching pre for my then REF600mkIII, I bought it on impulse. Well.. unfortunately it stayed that way and I did recall missing the old VTL quite a bit later on.

However, the current crops REF5/5SE (which I am familiar with, my brother owns them) and especially their flagships perhaps are different animals altogether, but then so is the VTL7.5mkIII I suspect. Best if you could try first in your system before buying if possible. My 2c

[C2300MC275]

Thanks for the input guys. I am asking the dealer to borrow the ref 3 - hopefully he will oblige

I agree not to rush in as I don't want the system to sound too syrupy and slow although I don't expect it would. There has always been something magical about ARC pres - I can't really stretch to ref5se right now so I thought the ref 3 might be stepping stone especially since people confirmed that I can't lose money per se.

Regarding the vtl 7.5 mkIII and vtl 6.5 - I have heard them a few times now and like what they do with production of very tangible images - feel like you could get out your seat and wander around the musicians - this experience is pretty exhilarating. The only complaint is a slight lack of detail but that was partnered with their mb450 monos rather than ss. The combo was into focal Utopias though.

[bvdiman]

Originally Posted by C2300MC275

Thanks for the input guys. I am asking the dealer to borrow the ref 3 - hopefully he will oblige

I agree not to rush in as I don't want the system to sound too syrupy and slow although I don't expect it would. There has always been something magical about ARC pres - I can't really stretch to ref5se right now so I thought the ref 3 might be stepping stone especially since people confirmed that I can't lose money per se.

Regarding the vtl 7.5 mkIII and vtl 6.5 - I have heard them a few times now and like what they do with production of very tangible images - feel like you could get out your seat and wander around the musicians - this experience is pretty exhilarating. The only complaint is a slight lack of detail but that was partnered with their mb450 monos rather than ss. The combo was into focal Utopias though.

Exactly, plus timbres are more spot on/correct IMO vs the REF3. Re lack of detail, I used Valhalla then to maximize extraction which seemed to do the job rather well. Anyway, goodluck with your trial.

[C2300MC275]

Hi Guys,

Just found a ref 5 for good money - can ref 5 be upgraded to SE and how much?

Cheers