I need subs! REL?

[PHC1]

I love my main system with the Luxman/Harbeth (PrimaLuna for Triode/Pentode tube listening sessions)

I also love my late night headphone listening sessions. Either Class A SS or Triode tubes, depending on the mood.

Overall I spend just as many hours at night in my headphones as I do during the day with the main system. I also tend to listen more critically in headphones as during the day I may be involved with other hobbies/work while the main system is serenading me.

Headphones have always been my deepest and most intense listening sessions over the decades. Perhaps because I listen late at night, perhaps because the headphones tend to do that which the main systems over the years have struggled to match...


Yes, headphones are better in some ways. That is no secret. They have their clear advantages and a few minor disadvantages.

One of the biggest advantages is obviously the acoustics of the headphone or headphone to ear interaction vs speaker to room interaction.

The headphone does not struggle against room acoustics. It does not have to deal with room modes and bass reinforcement boom or room position induced bass suckout.

Nor does the headphone have to deal with all kinds of room reflections.

As such, the headphone is typically a clearer conveyor of the musical message.

Of course the headphone does not give you quite the 3 dimensional soundstage like a stereo pair of speakers in front of you do but the brain learns to deal with it. I don't like using any electronic circuitry circus to enhance that effect such as crossfeed. Never have. Over the decades, I put on the headphones and the soundstage pops up in my mind instead of the room.

There is something very specific though that is difficult to match with the main system. It is the nearly linear response down to below 20Hz as is the case with my ZMF Auteur Blackwood headphones for example.

Sure, I had systems with two subs, took a lot of effort to dial them in to be smooth and the response was still not linear like you see with some of the better headphones. Sure, I had speakers that reached down to 20Hz but with some -5 or more dB down in the few rooms I had them. It is what it is, not an easy task. We have to balance between speakers that fit into rooms or overpower them.



The fundamental wave-length of 20Hz is 56 feet!

Think about it. If we have a twenty-foot long living room, and a loudspeaker at one end of it plays a 20 Hz. sine wave (56.5 feet long), that wave will go the length of the room, reflect back, and then reflect back again about 3/4s of the way before the next wavefront in that 20 Hz. wavetrain is generated. It is intuitively obvious that the room is not large enough to allow the wave to fully propagate without interference.

No such wave can be free of significant constructive and destructive interference in that room.

http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/taming_the_big_wave/



Headphones Produce Bass in a Closed Tunnel
All headphones — and especially the in-ear variety — create a more-or-less closed “tunnel” between the speaker and your ear. Relatively little air can escape from this tunnel, so your headphones are basically directly coupled to your eardrums, making them very efficient.



Taking a look at the frequency response of the ZMF Auteur Blackwood headphone, we can see how "spoiled" I am when it comes to CLEAN BASS reprodution! 20Hz is NOT A PROBLEM.


Listening to a lot of ORGAN music lately. The organ can truly tap the 14Hz depths... 64' piped organs can reach down to 8Hz!!!

In the ZMF headphones and a bit less so the Sennheiser HD600, a well recorded organ is a "religious experience" late at night. An awakening of the soul, as the organ twists and stirs every emotion.... Yeah, it is addicting.























So to make a long story short.... I need SUBS for my main system!

Thinking of going with REL this time around.

I was happy with JL Audio but I can get more bang for the buck from REL these days?


Stereo pair a must... but I can't go too big on the woofers if I want them to blend in smoothly with my Harbeth speakers. You don't want to have a too large of a size and hence "speed" difference between the woofer of the main speaker vs the SUBs. To blend the subs seamlessly, they need to come up gently and "tickle" the main speakers, augmenting them, not completely overriding the bass response of the main speaker.


So that will be my new 2021 goal. SUBS for the main system to at least partially match what I am hearing late in the evenings and at night, because THAT is the way to experience all of the music's message if that information in there! SUBS will help not only with the organ but from my previous experience, even the vocals will typically benefit!

My 30x30 room will allow the bass to develop but we shall see what comes out of the project and how the REL subs will behave in this room.

So I will start the research as to which pair of RELs to go with for this project...

[JMD]

You can get even more bang for the buck with Rythmik. Look at the F12G which uses Danny Ritchie's 12" driver.

[FreddieFerric]

SVS - Great musical subs

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by FreddieFerric

SVS - Great musical subs

I’ve heard good things about SVS. It’s a consideration.

[FreddieFerric]

Originally Posted by PHC1

I’ve heard good things about SVS. It’s a consideration.

I've owned 4 and can't say enough good things about them. Be sure to go with the sealed box. Never been a fan of ported subs.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by FreddieFerric

I've owned 4 and can't say enough good things about them. Be sure to go with the sealed box. Never been a fan of ported subs.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by JMD

You can get even more bang for the buck with Rythmik. Look at the F12G which uses Danny Ritchie's 12" driver.

Not familiar, will take a look thanks.

[Antonmb]

You have a big room Serge. As you say, it will allow bass to develop, but it will also take some serious bass to fill it and give you that thump in the chest. RELs are known for their speed and clean bass, and should be a good match for your Harbeths. Your budget will come into play of course, but a pair of G1s might do the trick, with a spec of -6db at 15hz. The Carbon Special would also be a good match.

Good luck in your search. If you have a good dealer who knows your system and room, that’s a great way to start. Also I’ve found John Hunter at REL can I be very helpful - send him an email with your system info and goals and he will provide solid advice.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Antonmb

You have a big room Serge. As you say, it will allow bass to develop, but it will also take some serious bass to fill it and give you that thump in the chest. RELs are known for their speed and clean bass, and should be a good match for your Harbeths. Your budget will come into play of course, but a pair of G1s might do the trick, with a spec of -6db at 15hz. The Carbon Special would also be a good match.

Good luck in your search. If you have a good dealer who knows your system and room, that’s a great way to start. Also I’ve found John Hunter at REL can I be very helpful - send him an email with your system info and goals and he will provide solid advice.

The chest pounding in this room will require some serious subs. From the days of the theater room buildout, I still remember the raw power and the caliber of the sub it takes to get there. I had a Fathom F212 in that room which was smaller and more absorbent with all the acoustic treatments and bass traps. But the result was stunning.

In this room, I’m afraid it will take something much more and take me places I don’t want to go.

So I’m hoping to fill out the bottom octave with a pair of subs that will both, do the job while keeping cost within a reasonable range of no more than $5k total for this “enhancement”.

[Audiophilehi]

I’ll be watching this thread closely as I am too interested in getting sub/subs for 2021. I currently have 1 JL Audio f113 V1 sub. I might add another or go for a pair of something totally different.