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  #11  
Old 03-09-2020, 06:51 PM
nicoff nicoff is offline
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Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
Most suggestions are rules of thumb. If your main speakers have pretty flat bass but roll off at some frequency, say 40Hz, blending a good sub in at 35-40 makes a lot of sense.

What if in your room, those super main speakers are not flat down to 40 Hz but have a big resonance bump at say, 60Hz, you might want to take advantage of crossing them over above this frequency and using your flexibility in sub placement to avoid that resonance at 60Hz.

That is why I prefer to know how my room measures after I have done the best I can with main speaker placement. I can dial in my sub much better with that data. My ears are not as good as the microphone.

Good luck no matter what you decide to do.

Totally agree. Just because a speaker can go all the way down to, say, 30hz, that does not mean that you may not need help above that frequency.
Measurements can tell you how your speakers interact with YOUR room. You can use the sub to help your speakers compensate for issues/deficiencies that arise from the speakers, their location, and/or their interaction with your room.
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Old 03-10-2020, 06:59 AM
Mikeoz Mikeoz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
Most suggestions are rules of thumb. If your main speakers have pretty flat bass but roll off at some frequency, say 40Hz, blending a good sub in at 35-40 makes a lot of sense.

What if in your room, those super main speakers are not flat down to 40 Hz? Let’s say they show a big resonance bump at say, 60Hz, you might want to take advantage of crossing them over above this frequency and using your flexibility in sub placement to avoid that resonance at 60Hz.

That is why I prefer to know how my room measures after I have done the best I can with main speaker placement. I can dial in my sub much better with that data. My ears are not as good as the microphone.

Good luck no matter what you decide to do.
Thanks for the advice. I may be misunderstanding the point but in my case the sub supplements the main speakers (which will continue to be used full range). Therefore if there was a bump at say 60hz increasing the crossover on the sub would simply reinforce that bump ?

Regarding the roll off point wouldn't that be determined by the speaker more than the room. I appreciate there can be peaks and nulls but I would have thought that a sub is a fairly blunt instrument - wouldn't room treatment (bass traps etc) be a better solution to deal with that kind of issue ?
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  #13  
Old 03-10-2020, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeoz View Post
Thanks for the advice. I may be misunderstanding the point but in my case the sub supplements the main speakers (which will continue to be used full range). Therefore if there was a bump at say 60hz increasing the crossover on the sub would simply reinforce that bump ?



Regarding the roll off point wouldn't that be determined by the speaker more than the room. I appreciate there can be peaks and nulls but I would have thought that a sub is a fairly blunt instrument - wouldn't room treatment (bass traps etc) be a better solution to deal with that kind of issue ?


Yes. If you have already decided to run your mains full range and/or do not have a crossover then the question is only how high can you set the sub before it overlaps too much.

The crossover allows you to control the low and high pass filters among other controls and makes blending your sub easier. It also allows the sub to be less of the blunt instrument you mentioned.
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  #14  
Old 03-10-2020, 11:39 AM
nicoff nicoff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeoz View Post
Thanks for the advice. I may be misunderstanding the point but in my case the sub supplements the main speakers (which will continue to be used full range). Therefore if there was a bump at say 60hz increasing the crossover on the sub would simply reinforce that bump ?



Regarding the roll off point wouldn't that be determined by the speaker more than the room. I appreciate there can be peaks and nulls but I would have thought that a sub is a fairly blunt instrument - wouldn't room treatment (bass traps etc) be a better solution to deal with that kind of issue ?

If you have flexibility in the positioning of the listening seat, the speakers and the subs, you should be able to find locations that will give you a good integration throughout a larger range of frequencies. I realize that there are times when the positioning of one or several of those three elements is fixed which limits your options. You can also explore room treatments and that includes digital DSP. You can get amazing results with DSP.
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  #15  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lem321 View Post
I just attended a demo of the new Wilson Audio XVX this past Saturday and Peter McGrath was there and commented on the use of subwoofers with Wilson speakers. He said that generally, with most of their speakers, they crossover at about 32hz (presumably for their full range speakers). I'm not sure this is applicable to all their speakers (e.g. Sophia 2) but it sounded like a good starting point.
That was awesome, a truly eye-opener or rather an ear-opener. I never heard
Sinatra sounding quite like that, and the opera singer as well. Sublime.

Just to add to the thread, the subs should complement these capable
speakers. With some experimentation you should lock the placement
and crossover settings. Let us know your findings.
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  #16  
Old 03-11-2020, 09:26 AM
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I have some test tones and a SPL meter so will experiment at the weekend. I had a quick listening session last night and ended up with just under 40hz cross over and around 1/4 volume. Still open minded though.

Regarding placement there are not many options. The speakers are on the long wall of a L-shaped room. The system stack is in the front wall corner behind the right speaker (can't move this due to cable restraints). So really i only have the choice of middle of the long front wall behind the left speaker - or the opposite corner to this behind the sofa on the rear wall. I guess placement behind the listening position is a big no no (I already tried both positions and for sure more bass in the rear corner). BTW i plan to use it for movies and music.
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  #17  
Old 03-14-2020, 12:38 PM
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Hi all I measured the room from my listening position with test tones and a SPL metre.

Using the main speakers only I get the following results using a 90db SPL setting :

30hz 0
40hz -3
50hz -6
60hz -2
70hz 1
80hz -1

I tried the sub in several position, in the front corner, alongside a speaker, but the position with by far the flattest result was on the side wall mid-point between the sofa and speakers.

30hz -1
40hz 0
50hz 1
60hz 2
70hz 2
80hz 3

So I wonder whether I should cross over a little higher maybe around 50 and lower the volume slightly. Once the sub is properly broken in (only 10 hours so far) I will do some critical listening tests.

Last edited by Mikeoz; 03-14-2020 at 12:50 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-14-2020, 03:30 PM
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Can you tell us what unit of measure and what sound pressure meter you are using?
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  #19  
Old 03-15-2020, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
Can you tell us what unit of measure and what sound pressure meter you are using?
Hi it’s a Silverline meter and I’m selecting range 90 db
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  #20  
Old 03-15-2020, 01:37 PM
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I understand. Those numbers are from 90dB...

Yes, your second set of numbers is flatter. Keep measuring up to ~300Hz and see how flat it remains.

I would also adjust the volume of your system to closer to 75dB when you measure.
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