B&W vs. ML . . . fun experiment

[kamiraa]

Those that know me are familiar that I LOVE testing speakers critically. When I test I can typically get a little crazy, this testing either involves the lab setting (from my ex-NASA days) or by critically listening to every detail of a song over and over while making notes. Luckily my hearing range is still superb and although I love analytical data I still trust my ears.

I had the opportunity to purchase some Martin Logan Summit-X's recently from a great friend, so I decided to do some super detailed testing of Martin Logans (Summit-X and Montis) vs. Bowers and Wilkins (803D3s and later my upgraded CM9s).

My experience in this testing has lead me down an interesting rabbit hole . . . WHAT does the actual LIVE music sound like.

The test began with a fair competitor, 803D3's vs. Montis. The first thing I noticed was that the voice was so much more pronounced and clearer with the Martin Logans vs. the Bowers, but there was some draw backs. The mid bass from the Martin Logans was much less than the Bowers and the overall bass was even more noticeable. What the Bowers and Wilkins did significantly better was handle MULTIPLE instruments at once. The Martin Logans took the voice and make it center stage and crystal clear, but everything else blended back. During certain songs with multiple guitars the Bowers took every single one and broke them apart, it sounded like live music. I have some explanations for this if anyone is interested ask away. Overall because of the imaging and mid bass the 803D3's were the better speaker , the Montis were slightly better for vocals.

The next test went to critically testing my new Summit X's by themselves with my listening notes. Although the Summit X uses the same top panel as the Montis there are 2 woofers in this unit instead, one forward facing one down facing. The first thing I noticed was more mid bass, and WAY more overall bass with extension all the way down to their claimed 24 hz. The Summit-X's were definitely a step up from the Montis. The 340hz crossover vs. 270hz on the Summit X also must help with the overall mid bass situation. The extra 200 watts of power and extra woofer help with every detail down low. Again the clarity of the voice was amazing, but it exposed the rabbit hole I'm now down . . . . WHAT does the actual LIVE music sound like.

One thing I noticed with my Sonus Fabers or Bowers and Wilkins is when a guitar strums you can FEEL the impulse of the sound, not just hear the sound. The strum's impulse on songs reminds me of live music? Why??? Because every live venue has conventional woofer style speakers and we have all grown up with this experience.

Instead . . . with the Martin Logans . . . . you hear the sound with all of its clarity but the physical impulse is hardly there at all. So the question begs , what is true? I'm going to have my buddy come by later to play my acoustic guitars and listen if this impulse is apparent in non-amplified music, or is it just an artifact of speakers that we all have been hearing for years.

The book is not closed yet, but I can say I LOVED listening to both speakers, which one would I own? Both . . . .

[kaarmstrong]

Kamiraa, nice post. I too sometimes get caught up in how it "sounds" but then wonder how "real" does it sound. I always try to imagine what the real instruments would sound like as I experiments with new equipment. Keep us posted on how the live guitar sounds. Thanks Kyle

[2fastdriving]

The one thing about comparing to "live" music is, it's never really that good live. I've been to a lot of concerts and it's loud and awesome but NEVER EVER EVER can you get a "soundstage" at a concert. It's just a wall of sound coming at you.

If you are in a small intimate venue, you might be able to get closer. But if they are amplified, think about THAT for a sec. You are hearing a cheap mic amplified by a PA speaker. Is that good quality? I doubt it. It's just a woofer and a horn, driven by a 2500w amp and meant to fill a room, not meant to sound good in the critical sense.

So if you are in a small intimate venue where it's NOT amplified, you are probably closest to hearing what you want. Of course that's never going to be the case with some types of music like rock. If it's not amplified, you are at the mercy of where you happen to be sitting. Probably not in dead center front row.

My point is, I feel like it's a fantasy to chase what "live music" sounds like. The homogenized version that we get in our recorded music is probably actually more clear and has better depth and soundstage.

Just my opinion.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

The one thing about comparing to "live" music is, it's never really that good live. .........................
My point is, I feel like it's a fantasy to chase what "live music" sounds like. The homogenized version that we get in our recorded music is probably actually more clear and has better depth and soundstage.

Of course, it is the opposite for classical performances.

[2fastdriving]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

Of course, it is the opposite for classical performances.

Like I noted, you get closest when the live performance is not amplified.

[kamiraa]

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

The one thing about comparing to "live" music is, it's never really that good live. I've been to a lot of concerts and it's loud and awesome but NEVER EVER EVER can you get a "soundstage" at a concert. It's just a wall of sound coming at you.

If you are in a small intimate venue, you might be able to get closer. But if they are amplified, think about THAT for a sec. You are hearing a cheap mic amplified by a PA speaker. Is that good quality? I doubt it. It's just a woofer and a horn, driven by a 2500w amp and meant to fill a room, not meant to sound good in the critical sense.

So if you are in a small intimate venue where it's NOT amplified, you are probably closest to hearing what you want. Of course that's never going to be the case with some types of music like rock. If it's not amplified, you are at the mercy of where you happen to be sitting. Probably not in dead center front row.

My point is, I feel like it's a fantasy to chase what "live music" sounds like. The homogenized version that we get in our recorded music is probably actually more clear and has better depth and soundstage.

Just my opinion.

You're 100% right, but you have reached the same paradox that I've come to . . . . how do we know what the recorded music should sound like?

[2fastdriving]

Originally Posted by kamiraa

You're 100% right, but you have reached the same paradox that I've come to . . . . how do we know what the recorded music should sound like?

Like I mentioned in a different post where the OP was asking about what to listen for in an audition... It's about what moves you. If you are hung up on why the sax player is sitting on the drummers lap, you are missing the point.

[Cohibaman]

Great post. It's exactly the same question I have with ANY component change really (interconnect cables, speaker cables, preamps, amps, and speakers especially).

So many of us make a decision as to which cable for instance 'sounds better', when in fact it could be changing the 'true sound'. Even though it may not be accurate, it sounds better and therefore it must be better, right? Not necessarily true.

I'm looking forward to your next installment.

[bart]

Great thread.

My wife and I attend a lot of concerts, mostly classical (100% not amplified) and some jazz (seldom amplified).
So we have it quite clear how we want a system to sound.
It can get quite close to live, but the real thing will always be better.

We love rock/pop also, and we also attend concerts.
And for those styles of music, we find the sound at our place indeed a lot better; albeit that the bass is less pronounced at our place, but better defined (indeed less woolly than the cheapish woofers at most events).

[kamiraa]

The acoustic session is getting pushed out to another day, so I decided to play around with speaker placement with the Martin Logans (Sorry folks for having this in the wrong manufacturing forum section -- the exploration of ideas is slightly change). As a gesture of good will to my audiophile brothers I will share an awesome trick below for setting up your B&W speakers that will make a HUGE difference.

Back to the story:

The strangest thing occurs with MLs . . . their apparent sweet spot is TINY. If you move left or right in the seating location the sound will either tighten or loosen up, volume changes, and overall it can go from sounding "good" to "mind blowing". But more importantly inclination makes a huge difference also . . . I started standing up versus squatting down near the couch to hear the improvements. Once I had the angles correct I propped up the speaker by some books before I adjusted the spikes. This test was just to get a rough idea of the sweet spot, I'll do a more detailed setup later.

The first lesson learned . . . the Martin Logans are mind blowing once setup correct, BUT you have a very small box that they will sound great in. The second lesson learned is the past reflection that every shop i've ever been to with them has them just facing forward and spikes zero'd out, this setup is 100% incorrect.

I would never get these ML speakers for multiple seating locations, but for single couch or chair seating locations they are AWESOME. Alternatively, B&Ws have a huge apparent sound stage, you can stand up, sit down, move around, they still sound great. But B&W like every speaker has a sweet spot . . . . so how do you find this sweet spot?

Let me share an awesome trick i've learned in the past that helped me setup my B&Ws to make them sound awesome:

1. Determine your seating location, put a tripod in your seating location and adjust the height , depth, and position to try to mark where the center of your head is at ear level.

2. Ensure your left and right speaker are the same equilateral distance from the center-line of your room, get it down to fractions of an inch.

3. Ensure your left and right speaker are the same equilateral distance from the rear wall behind it, get it down to the fractions of an inch.

3. Get a laser pointer, for square speaker cabinets you can lay the laser pointer tube on the side of the speaker and adjust your "toe" to line up with your marked tripod location

4. Reuse the laser pointer, for square speaker cabinets you can lay the laser pointer on the top of the speaker and adjust your "inclination" to line up with your marked tripod location

I hope this helps folks