Cremona M Room Placement

[william13]

assuming sound waves are not bouncing off the floor or hitting the ceiling, couldn't one lower or raise his chair to give a hint how to proceed?

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by william13

assuming sound waves are not bouncing off the floor or hitting the ceiling, couldn't one lower or raise his chair to give a hint how to proceed?

Sound is doing both but checking vertically by raising and lowering your head is a great way to get a sense of where you are and what needs to be done.

[Rick U]

Great advise William. I just adjusted my rake and my system sounds better again. That's 3 big improvements this week and two were free. Well almost the lasers were $6.

[Jester]

Hi guys,
Had a quick browse here a few months back when I became the proud owner of a pair of new Cremona M's ...
Started off plonking them down where the replaced speakers were and toe'd them in on the listening position, sounded pretty good already but being brand new I left them as is to break in,
Should be done now and all settled with the existing electronics and cables so now re-reading this whole thread to get my head around all the final little adjustments to get them producing their best,
I've done a bit of speaker building over the years and I'm presuming the rake adjustment is to have the acoustic centres of the drivers time aligned to minimise phase errors, I'm also assuming a second order crossover between midrange and tweeter which along with the chamfered baffle of the tweeter would push any phase errors out of hearing range,
Slowly getting the theory of it all and now to put it into practice so after reading again it's seems slowly and a little at a time for all adjustments, with lots of listening in between, if I'm missing something which could make anything easier or quicker .... Or both .... Any advice would be much appreciated .....
System for anyone interested is:
Audiolab 8200CD
Eximus DAC
CJ CT6 pre
McCormack DNA 225 power
Nordost Frey interconnect and speaker cables
Analogue via:
Rega RP6
Reflex M preamp

[jakegt3]

Congrats on the Cremona M's. I've had mine for a bit over one year and now that I've got them dialed in, that are absolutely wonderful, natural sounding speakers.

I found they were pretty fussy to set up, at least in my room. Moving them a couple inches (a few cm) one way or the other made a significant difference in frequency balance and soundstaging. I found the best rake angle was the default, which is to have the floor spikes screwed all the way into the side arms. I also ended up toeing them in to point directly at the listening position, which is what the factory recommends.

Don't be afraid to experiment. What sounds best to you is what counts.

[Jester]

Thanks for the info,
So far I've widened them a few inches as they sounded a little "congested" and the soundstage opened nicely and a solid centre image, fussed around for a while with the toe in as the curved faces are trickier to align until I spotted the obvious, when each speaker is pointed directly at the seated position closing say the left eye exactly half of each of the rear knurled spike knobs are visible on the right speaker, and vice versa closing the other eye, a quick visual reference that they are both centred to within the width of your eyes .....
Sound wise, improving all the time with a nice balanced response and more inner detail revealed, part of me hopes I'm pretty close but the rest of me hopes there's more to come.
Thanks again .

[Jester]

All plus's so far, precise toe in adjustment yields a slightly unexpected but totally logical benefit, sure that magical sweet spot is just that, but now that spot is accurately on the axis of both speakers moving to a seat either side that friends may use sounds way better too as that position is no longer on axis with one side and way off with the other, instead moving sideways puts you slowly off axis with both speakers, so now there is a "listenable" soundstage anywhere between the speakers ...... Good stuff ....

[Bavarian05]

Congratulations on a great pair of speakers!

[Antonmb]

Jester
congratulations on a great set of speakers. Sumiko has a fairly detailed setup process they developed years ago and train all their dealers to use to install Sonus Faber speakers. My dealer went through this process when I purchased my Cremona Auditor Ms and the results were excellent. Most recently Dan (jdandy) posted the Master Speaker setup guide here:
http://www.audioaficionado.org/pre-a...tml#post617307

Here's a slightly simplified version as well. I suggest you start with this process. It's time consuming but will yield great results. This process matches the speakers to your room and listening position based on your ears rather than just relying on standard geometrical layouts, measuring tapes and lasers, which don't take into account your specific environment.

-----------------------------------------------------
SUMIKO “IRON CHEF” SPEAKER SETUP PROTOCOL

This protocol was presented to me by John Hunter the owner of Sumiko. They are USA distributors for SME, Sumiko, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, REL and others. This is the best room set up tool I have ever used.
The most critical part is getting the speaker rake angle adjusted after you have them finally situated. So I hope your speakers have spikes. You will need them to set the rake angle.
If you have no spikes, you can get door shims at Home Depot or Lowes. These are wedges are used to hang the door frames to the studs surrounding the doors. There will be people to help you find these shims. They are inexpensive and you can use them to figure the angle you need, and then find something more in tune with your decore to provide the final angle.
So here is the Iron Chef Speaker Set Up Protocol
Proper speaker set up requires music. John Hunter of Sumiko uses a Rob Wasserman song featuring Jennifer Warnes called "Ballad of the Runaway Horse". You will find this on his “Duets” cd and his “Trio” CD as well. This is the best set up song I have ever found. So get a copy of this. You will always be glad you did. Another tool I like to use for fine tuning the speakers is Bob Chesky's Jazz Sampler Number 1. Cuts 10 and above really help you nail it down solid.
Step 1 will be to remove whatever removable sound absorbers you have. Take them out of the room. Anything that is permanently fixed and all your furniture and stuff are ok to leave alone.
Step 2 recommends you either remove the speaker stand spikes to make moving the speakers easier, or at least level all the spikes so the speaker is completely level. If you own heavy speakers you are probably better off adjusting the speakers with the spikes in place and set level.
Step 3 is to establish your listening seat. Optimally you will set up the speakers and your listening seat in the shape of an triangle. I like my speakers at least 8-12 ft apart and the listening seat 12-15 ft back. When properly set up, the speaker will be out at least 18” from the rear boundary wall. Your listening seat likewise should be at least 24 inches from a back boundary.
Step 4 places both left and right speakers directly against their wall facing straight out into the room. No inward “toe in” angle should be attempted yet.
The left speaker is going to become the anchor for the set up.
Step 5 gets you grooving. Now you can begin playing the “Ballad”. What makes this song so effective for set up is that the plucked string bass is at realistic volume at realistic timber. So the goal is to get the bass properly coupled to the room and the drivers.
Play this track at volumes where you can easily detect bass quality. I am usually between 80-95 db when I do a set up. Sometimes you will need to crank it up a bit. Just make sure it is loud enough to fully engage the room.
Step 6 involves a buddy. Have your buddy slide your left speaker (the anchor) out into the room until the bass becomes solid and authoritative. Mark this spot with some masking tape.
Now slide the speaker right and left to find the best bass quality. Mark this spot.
Now slide the speaker further out in the room to find other points where the bass couples properly in your room. There are likely to be a dozen spots within a 3 ft diameter of your first spot. Be patient. 1/3 of an inch is all that differentiates a good bass quality from a lifeless bass sound.
Listen to all of these good bass points until you find your favorite bass spot.
All this is done with just the left speaker playing straight out. The right speaker is playing straight into the room from the back wall. Each speaker playing at the same volume.
Step 7 establishes the “toe in” angle of your left speaker toward your listening seat. You want the widest possible sound stage without the sound being too thin. I usually end up seeing about 2/3 of the inside wall of the speaker when I have this about right. Do not toe in excessively, you will just ruin your sound stage. A little dab will do you! If the toe in is right, the sound will be very natural, if it is too wide the sound will be thin, and with too much the sound will seem to come from two speakers not from the space in between.
Your anchor is now set. Mark this spot carefully with masking tape.
Step 8 requires reinsertion of the left speaker's spikes leaving the speaker level at this time.
Step 9 is to set up the right speaker position. Simply slide or move the right speaker out into the room. Move it slowly listening for the sound stage to line up equally before you. By this I mean a stage is flat in front of you. The sound stage should not sound tilted, like one speaker sounding closer to you than the other. Remember to keep the speaker oriented directly straight ahead. No angle yet.
Step 10 involves moving the speaker right and left until you hear the soundstage become cohesive, and Jennifer should sound like she is right dab in the middle.
Step 11 Then toe in the angle the speaker very slighly until you hear Jennifer Warnes voice become a “body” centered in the sound field. You will hear the sound congeal nicely at this time. Things are really beginning to sound better now.
You should now have accomplished sound coupling of the speakers to your room boundaries. To test if this is the case, you should be able to stand directly over either speaker and clearly hear the other speaker.
It may be necessary to make very minor angle adjustments of the right speaker to get her voice centered. Be patient and you will be rewarded.
Now if the sound stage is not linear, meaning one speaker sounds more forward than the other, then simply slide that right speaker front or back until the sound field is "level." (Moving it right or left adjusts the centering of Jennifer Warnes voice).
Make sure you mark the final location of both speakers with masking tape.
Insert the right speaker spikes.
Step 12 begins with adjustments to the rake angle of the left speaker. You accomplish this by adjusting the spikes to get the speaker level across the front, and raked back to get the beam of the tweeter firing above your ears. You need to listen to the quality of Jennifer Warnes voice. She should appear to be ear level or slightly above ear level in the sound field. This is a personal choice. Many of my friends prefer ear level because it is a slightly fuller sound. I prefer a little above ear level cause I like the voice to sound ultra natural, like a live musical event.
Carefully listen to the tweeter response of the left speaker and make sure that the "beam" is at least an inch or two above your ear when you are seated in your listening seat.
Step 13 begins by adjusting the spikes on your right speaker to match the "height" of the left speaker.
At this time, you should hear her voice almost as a whisper, when originally it may have sounded shrill and harsh. Her voice should be centered in the sound field now, with solid and good quality bass.
Step 14 suggests you take measurements of the speaker location to the walls. Take digital photos. Someone will mess with your set up some time. You need to have these so you don't have to repeat the process unnecessarily. When you have this locked in, don't let anybody touch your set up!
I like to follow up the set-up with some confirmation tests. I prefer the Bob Chesky Jazz Sampler 1 CD. On cut 10 the speaker starts out 2 ft from the microphone in center stage. Then he moves midway right, full right, and off-stage right. He then repeats this on the left. Simply slide your right speaker right or left to get the sound staging perfect. Then use cut 11 which is “Over”, “Lateral”, “Under” and “Up” to verify your rake angles.
Your friends will be amazed. Just two CD’s let you make the magic. Rob Wasserman’s Duo or Trio CD, and Bob Chesky’s Jazz Sampler 1.
Step 15 bring back any sound absorbers and reflectors to see if you can improve upon the sound. But don't touch the speaker’s location.
What you have done, in short, is to couple the speaker's response to your room based upon your listening seat.
This process will take me 20-30 minutes or longer. On your first dozen set ups it may take longer.
Let me know if you have any questions about this process. I can do this all alone. Having a buddy slide your speaker is much faster and easier. If you have hard floors instead of carpet, you can set the speaker on a soft towel to assist in the sliding.
Make sure your buddy stands behind the speaker when he/she moves it, because their body will affect the sound if they stand along side of the speaker.

[George Prentice]

I found this to be a good book on the subject.

http://getbettersound.com/index.php