Adding an REL sub

[Venere]

I have pair of Venere 3.0s in basic two channel setup which is used about 80/20 for music/movies. The speakers go down to about 35 to 40hz in room and then disappear lower than that due to ported design. Am considering adding a REL S/2 sub based on great reviews, pricing I am comfortable with, and wireless capability since the likely best placement is across the room from the amps/speakers. Anybody have experience with this particular sub or a similar setup? Should I expect significant improvement to overall sound, or do the mains go low enough that the Sub wont make much difference? Any feedback on REL vs JL subs, etc ?

[Superfrg]

I like those Venere's and considered them some time ago.
I think you would benefit by having a sub in the system, especially for HT its a must have.

If you can audition a sub at home in your system, you could see how it works out with placements and integration.

Now, my former Epicon speakers (rated at 35hz) integrated well with my sub, and my new speakers is rated 1 hz. lower but play so much bigger in the bass that I don't have the sub connected for music. Its just too much.

It really comes down to what you like, room size and what kind of basehead you are
I don't think you can go wrong with either REL or JL.
Try to get a loaner if possible!

[bigblue]

Venere, I have yet to hear an implementation of a sub or two that works seamlessly.
If you want to have a sub for film performance - go a head.
But otherwise I would save my pennies and when the right time comes upgrade to a bigger speaker.

[chessman]

I use two JL Audio F113s to augment my Wilson Audio Sophia 2 speakers. I use an active cross-over (Bryston 10B-SUB) to integrate them with the mains. The result was a significant improvement over mains alone.

I have not tried Rel, but have always been intrigued by them because each sub has a built-in active cross-over to assist in integrating them.

Bottom line: without an active cross-over (either external or built-in) you are largely wasting your time adding subs to two channel. If you are incredibly lucky or use massive amps, it might work, but it is not likely.

[4RE]

The mantra is 2 subs. The problem is that there has been some 25 years of marketing bombardment to buy ' a subwoofer'.. The ' widely accepted standard' of 5.1 is not a standard, it is marketing.

would anyone buy a big 3 way speaker for say 50k and accept without any questions if one of the speakers had no woofer ? Guess not. Why not? Because all agree loudspeakers are about Stereo. It is ALL about stereo.

trust the ears, if one sub sounds fine, just try two

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by 4RE

The mantra is 2 subs. The problem is that there has been some 25 years of marketing bombardment to buy ' a subwoofer'.. The ' widely accepted standard' of 5.1 is not a standard, it is marketing.

would anyone buy a big 3 way speaker for say 50k and accept without any questions if one of the speakers had no woofer ? Guess not. Why not? Because all agree loudspeakers are about Stereo. It is ALL about stereo.

trust the ears, if one sub sounds fine, just try two

Actually 5.1 is indeed a range of standards. You need to go to the Dolby Production Website and you will find them. Speakers set to small is marketing. 5.1 run as intended is not. Here's a hint: large is your friend.

Understanding how to integrate a sub to properly work for both 2 channel and 5.1 theater applications requires understanding what the 5.1 application actually is so you do not destroy 2 channel performance, but enhance it. Since so few people understand what bass management in 5.1 is, it's no wonder so many 5.1 systems sound awful.

[Venere]

Thanks for all the comments. I went for it and I have to say I am 100% happy with outcome. Big gains in fullness, extension, and soundstage depth/delineation especially on acoustic/classical recordings. Of course its massive improvement for movies, but my primary use is for music, and so far i dont hear any downside. Its plenty fast enough to not thicken the mid-bass and somehow it seems to actually open up the midrange and make it sound more natural. Setup is (as everyone suggested) very critical. One has to err on the side of subtlety, as too much of a good thing definitely muddies the sound. The best advice in the manual is at the end of the setup section where it says to set the crossover as low as possible (i have mine at 32hz) and turn the volume up a bit (as opposed to the reverse approach). Admittedly this is easier if you have mains that go down to about 40hz as mine do. Trying to integrate smaller mains is no doubt much tougher. The RELs apparently have a 12db per octave filter, so setting the crossover well below the limits of the mains gives just about the proper overlap without extending up into the mid-bass. Having heard the impact of an additional octave of extension on my system with (as far as I can tell so far) no negative effects I cant see going back to no sub at all. Honestly, the biggest bang for the buck improvement I've made in a very long time in this hobby.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Venere

Thanks for all the comments. I went for it and I have to say I am 100% happy with outcome. Big gains in fullness, extension, and soundstage depth/delineation especially on acoustic/classical recordings. Of course its massive improvement for movies, but my primary use is for music, and so far i dont hear any downside. Its plenty fast enough to not thicken the mid-bass and somehow it seems to actually open up the midrange and make it sound more natural. Setup is (as everyone suggested) very critical. One has to err on the side of subtlety, as too much of a good thing definitely muddies the sound. The best advice in the manual is at the end of the setup section where it says to set the crossover as low as possible (i have mine at 32hz) and turn the volume up a bit (as opposed to the reverse approach). Admittedly this is easier if you have mains that go down to about 40hz as mine do. Trying to integrate smaller mains is no doubt much tougher. The RELs apparently have a 12db per octave filter, so setting the crossover well below the limits of the mains gives just about the proper overlap without extending up into the mid-bass. Having heard the impact of an additional octave of extension on my system with (as far as I can tell so far) no negative effects I cant see going back to no sub at all. Honestly, the biggest bang for the buck improvement I've made in a very long time in this hobby.

Proper positioning/ Low crossover point/ high gain =

[Apexorca]

Originally Posted by bigblue

Venere, I have yet to hear an implementation of a sub or two that works seamlessly.
If you want to have a sub for film performance - go a head.
But otherwise I would save my pennies and when the right time comes upgrade to a bigger speaker.

I agree!

[jdandy]

Venere.......Congratulations on the new REL S2 subwoofer. Considering that the Venere's are likely down about 3dB to 5dB at that 38Hz specification, quite typical for speaker performance versus manufacturer's claims, I think there is more to be gained from the subwoofer. The manual states that the crossover slope is 12dB per octave so the frequencies above your selected crossover point will be rolled off relatively quick without intruding on frequencies above your selected point. My suggestion would be to raise your crossover point to 36Hz or even 38Hz. As the subwoofer slope begins to roll off the frequencies above the set point, the additional low frequency range above your current 32Hz set point will strengthen and support the Venere woofers frequency range as they begin rolling off at 40Hz or there about. Then, if necessary, adjust the gain control for seamless integration. That small increase in the crossover point will reduce the dip in the lowest frequency response as it is presently configured.

Try it and see what you think. Spend more than just a few minutes, more like a few hours with the new setting to see how you feel about the deep bass region. You can always return to your present settings but I believe you will discover additional bass definition with this small change.

By the way, the REL S2 is a good looking subwoofer. With its 10 inch active driver and 10 inch passive driver it moves a lot of air.