Higher End DACs

[PeterMusic]

I'm all digital. But my son's $600 turntable and stylus sound approximately as good as my $6000 server and DAC when both are played through the rest of my system (using phono stage inside my Mc C22). I can tell the difference immediately, but I would not say that one is definitely better. So I've been thinking of dropping $6000 or so on a turntable...

One other important advantage of vinyl, at least for rock fans, is that vinyl has been relatively unscathed by the loudness wars that have harmed so many digital releases

[For The Love of Music]

I love High End Audio and believe it’s up to the owner to spend the time to learn the experience and budget accordingly!

True there are some great values despite digital or analog out there that punch well above their weight class, but also I believe you do get what you pay for, and this is a game of accumulating points.

You are not going to get a $1500 DAC to sound like a $15000 DAC and there’s nothing wrong with that, and the same when you have a $500 turntable compared to a $15000 table. But in either case you still will have the core on what we’re after, music!

From my experience I have built an extremely great foundation supporting a world class digital front end using a separate DAC and audio grade server.

Streaming and download are very close, you really have to listen very closely to critique which is better - but this was after a boatload of cash and time that I associate with this hobby!

When jumping to vinyl in comparison it is very evident when the source is recorded from master tapes over digital. This too was a boatload of cash, and have zero regrets, I love the hobby from cleaning the stylus and records to the event of playing a record and sharing the media with friends.

Is play records;

Dynamic? Yes
Quiet? Yes
Smooth? Yes

Do both present options for the best playback? Yes

Know your answer is out there, you’ll find it!

[For The Love of Music]

Originally Posted by For The Love of Music

I love High End Audio and believe it’s up to the owner to spend the time to learn the experience and budget accordingly!

True there are some great values despite digital or analog out there that punch well above their weight class, but also I believe you do get what you pay for, and this is a game of accumulating points.

You are not going to get a $1500 DAC to sound like a $15000 DAC and there’s nothing wrong with that, and the same when you have a $500 turntable compared to a $15000 table. But in either case you still will have the core on what we’re after, music!

From my experience I have built an extremely great foundation supporting a world class digital front end using a separate DAC and audio grade server.

Streaming and download are very close, you really have to listen very closely to critique which is better - but this was after a boatload of cash and time that I associate with this hobby!

When jumping to vinyl in comparison it is very evident when the source is recorded from master tapes over digital. This too was a boatload of cash, and have zero regrets, I love the hobby from cleaning the stylus and records to the event of playing a record and sharing the media with friends.

I’m listening to The Rolling Stones Sticky Fingers, period correct U.K. pressing and it still sounds very good and The Stones correctly aren’t audiophile grade recognized.

Is play records;

Dynamic? Yes
Quiet? Yes
Smooth? Yes

Do both present options for the best playback? Yes

Know your answer is out there, you’ll find it!

Q

[ufguy73]

Originally Posted by crwilli

Do you want to be able to play SACD/CD media or just stream?

Your budget is substantial and can buy equipment on the upper echelons.

While I have an SACD player that also serves as a DAC, I rarely spin discs relying primarily on music streamed from my NAS and Qobuz. I still buy SACDs and CDs and rip them to FLAC and DSD files and store them on my NAS. ROON is the media player I use to stream everything.

I am currently going through the audiophile gymnastics on what I might do next.

Generally, I think I am wrapping my mind around that I don't need the discs. I don’t have a lot now and (despite a low level panic about not actually owning physical media) understand many of the advantages that just come thru streaming.

I think the simple way to describe how I am thinking about spinning:

- certainly not a requirement in any way

- wouldn’t be opposed to having the capability for a relatively modest increase in price (ie if some integrated cd player/DAC has a phenomenal dac in it and the player is sort of a bonus I’d be willing to pay some more for it vs just the DAC aspect)

- however, if sacrificing on the spinning capability nets me a markedly better DAC I would absolutely prioritize the DAC

[Puma Cat]

Okay, so I've read this entire thread with interest...

I'll weigh in with my 2¢, based what I'd do and my experiences with configuring a fairly sophisticated streaming digital front end this last 9 months or so.

1. DAC: I'd recommend getting a Schiit Yggdrasil with UNISON USB for $2500. As Dan pointed out in his review and Robert Harley wrote about it in his review at TAS, the Yggdrasil can fully compete with DACs at many times its price multiple. This is a component you should not dismiss because of the (relatively) low price compared to more expensive DACs.

2. Ethernet Switch: I don't know how you'll be getting content from digital sources, e.g. streaming services like Qobuz, Tidal, etc. or from ripped files from physical media, but whatever the music server is, but if its a laptop, desktop computer or NUC, put it somewhere well away from the audio rack. Like in another room. The farther away the bettter. Make sure the music server can support Roon and function as the Roon Core. Use an audio-grade Ethernet switch like the Uptone Audio EtherREGEN ($645) to transmit via copper Ethernet or OM-1 optical fiber to stream the data to a network bridge in your audio rack. If you use optical fiber in place of copper Ethernet (which I recommend), then you'll need a fiber media convertor like a Sonore Optical Module or another EtherREGEN in your audio rack to convert the optical data back to copper Ethernet to connect to the Network Bridge (unless you use a Lumin network bridge or a Sonore OpticalRendu).

3. Roon Core Music Server: $600-$1500: This can range from a Mac Mini (which I use) to an Intel NUC or Roon Nucleus Server. If I were to start over today, I'd build up an Intel NUC. A Roon Nucleus is just a fancy cased Intel NUC(NUCleus, get it? ), so I'd save the money and just put together an i5-based Intel NUC.

4. Network Bridge: SOtM SMS-200 UltraNeo, $1200 (your network bridge would accept copper Ethernet from your Roon/music server computer). Alternatively, you could go with the Innuous Zen, which would obviate the need for dedicated computer or NUC for pulling files either from a hard drive or a streaming service. Power it with a Keces P3 linear power supply, $395

So, we're at about ~$5200 investment at this point.

You're going to need cables, so I'd suggest Shunyata Research Alpha or Sigma Ethernet and USB cables. Lets go with Alpha, so that would be another $1600 for both the Ethernet and USB cable. Use the USB cable to connect from the network bridge to the DAC.

Total: $6800

Okay: Now for the Turntable: Get a Rega Planar 8. Oustanding turntable for the money that will produce superb-quality sound and let you decide if you want to do the whole vinyl thang. You can put any money you'd spend on a more expensive turntable into LPs. Or going to concerts, which would be even better. $3100 for the Rega; you can decide what cartridge you want to use. Throw a Lyra Delos on it for about $2K

So, now we're up to ~$12,000.

If you haven't done so already, invest in improving the quality of your power distribution. The improvement this can bring is not to underestimated: I'd would spend $5K on upgrading the quality of my power distribution over an upgraded component any day of the week. You'll get a much bigger improvement for the same investment. Get a Shunyata Denali 6000/S V2 or Hydra A12 power distributor, and Shunyata power cords for all components; toss those generic black power cords if you're using them. You can go whole hog on power cords up to $3-4K/each, but lets keep it really simple and start with a 5-pack Shunyata Venom HC V2 power cords for $885. Add another two ~$200 Shunyata Venom V14D Digital power cords for powering the network bridge PC and music server. Total for power: $3500+885+$400 = $4785.

So, at this point, all in, you're at about $17,000.

I'd start with this setup. It will provide truly superb, accurate, natural, and most importantly, engaging music, yet not be plagued with noise from the dreaded switch-mode power supplies causing clock phase noise or common mode noise, and you'll have very clean, quiet, dynamic power. You'll have a killer digital streaming front-end and DAC AND a killer vinyl setup, and you'll have a lot of money left over from either $25K-$45K. Take some of that money, go to Vienna, and attend a concert at the Musikverein.

From this point you can decide if you want to go further, or sit back and enjoy the music. If you decide to upgrade, you won't have ANY problems flipping this gear to a very happy buyer.

So...that's what I'd do: get in with some truly excellent but not über-high end and über-expensive gear, live with it a for a bit, enjoy it, and then decide where you want to go.

[For The Love of Music]

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Okay, so I've read this entire thread with interest...

I'll weigh in with my 2¢, based what I'd do and my experiences with configuring a fairly sophisticated streaming digital front end this last 9 months or so.

1. DAC: I'd recommend getting a Schiit Yggdrasil with UNISON USB for $2500. As Dan pointed out in his review and Robert Harley wrote about it in his review at TAS, the Yggdrasil can fully compete with DACs at many times its price multiple. This is a component you should not dismiss because of the (relatively) low price compared to more expensive DACs.

2. Ethernet Switch: I don't know how you'll be getting content from digital sources, e.g. streaming services like Qobuz, Tidal, etc. or from ripped files from physical media, but whatever the music server is, but if its a laptop, desktop computer or NUC, put it somewhere well away from the audio rack. Like in another room. The farther away the bettter. Make sure the music server can support Roon and function as the Roon Core. Use an audio-grade Ethernet switch like the Uptone Audio EtherREGEN ($645) to transmit via copper Ethernet or OM-1 optical fiber to stream the data to a network bridge in your audio rack. If you use optical fiber in place of copper Ethernet (which I recommend), then you'll need a fiber media convertor like a Sonore Optical Module or another EtherREGEN in your audio rack to convert the optical data back to copper Ethernet to connect to the Network Bridge (unless you use a Lumin network bridge or a Sonore OpticalRendu).

3. Roon Core Music Server: $600-$1500: This can range from a Mac Mini (which I use) to an Intel NUC or Roon Nucleus Server. If I were to start over today, I'd build up an Intel NUC. A Roon Nucleus is just a fancy cased Intel NUC(NUCleus, get it? ), so I'd save the money and just put together an i5-based Intel NUC.

4. Network Bridge: SOtM SMS-200 UltraNeo, $1200 (your network bridge would accept copper Ethernet from your Roon/music server computer). Alternatively, you could go with the Innuous Zen, which would obviate the need for dedicated computer or NUC for pulling files either from a hard drive or a streaming service. Power it with a Keces P3 linear power supply, $395

So, we're at about ~$5200 investment at this point.

You're going to need cables, so I'd suggest Shunyata Research Alpha or Sigma Ethernet and USB cables. Lets go with Alpha, so that would be another $1600 for both the Ethernet and USB cable. Use the USB cable to connect from the network bridge to the DAC.

Total: $6800

Okay: Now for the Turntable: Get a Rega Planar 8. Oustanding turntable for the money that will produce superb-quality sound and let you decide if you want to do the whole vinyl thang. You can put any money you'd spend on a more expensive turntable into LPs. Or going to concerts, which would be even better. $3100 for the Rega; you can decide what cartridge you want to use. Throw a Lyra Delos on it for about $2K

So, now we're up to ~$12,000.

If you haven't done so already, invest in improving the quality of your power distribution. The improvement this can bring is not to underestimated: I'd would spend $5K on upgrading the quality of my power distribution over an upgraded component any day of the week. You'll get a much bigger improvement for the same investment. Get a Shunyata Denali 6000/S V2 or Hydra A12 power distributor, and Shunyata power cords for all components; toss those generic black power cords if you're using them. You can go whole hog on power cords up to $3-4K/each, but lets keep it really simple and start with a 5-pack Shunyata Venom HC V2 power cords for $885. Add another two ~$200 Shunyata Venom V14D Digital power cords for powering the network bridge PC and music server. Total for power: $3500+885+$400 = $4785.

So, at this point, all in, you're at about $17,000.

I'd start with this setup. It will provide truly superb, accurate, natural, and most importantly, engaging music, yet not be plagued with noise from the dreaded switch-mode power supplies causing clock phase noise or common mode noise, and you'll have very clean, quiet, dynamic power. You'll have a killer digital streaming front-end and DAC AND a killer vinyl setup, and you'll have a lot of money left over from either $25K-$45K. Take some of that money, go to Vienna, and attend a concert at the Musikverein.

From this point you can decide if you want to go further, or sit back and enjoy the music. If you decide to upgrade, you won't have ANY problems flipping this gear to a very happy buyer.

So...that's what I'd do: get in with some truly excellent but not über-high end and über-expensive gear, live with it a for a bit, enjoy it, and then decide where you want to go.

Essentially crawl before you walk - but get on the floor [emoji851]

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by For The Love of Music

Essentially crawl before you walk - but get on the floor [emoji851]

Yes!

— Buy a current model Esoteric SACD player - anyone of them.
— Using whatever laptop you have available download and subscribe to ROON
— Buy a 1 TB portable USB Hard Drive
— Buy as many tracks as grab you you from HDTracks - Download them to the portable hard drive.
— Buy a few SACDs from Acoustic Sounds, Amazon etc. they are readily available.
— Buy a Shunyata Alpha USB cable
— Subscribe to Qobuz

Connect it all up, Configure ROON to find your portable Hard Drive and your acces your Qobuz subscription.

Press play!

SOME of the things you could change or add as part of the ongoing improvement journey. Don’t start here. Enjoy listening to and for, the improvements of each of these things. Don’t hear it, sell it.

— Upgrade your PC. Get a dedicated made for audio PC
— Upgrade your ethernet cables - separate research here.
— Add a Gigafoil/EtherReGen with Keces power supply.
— Add Stillpoints
— Add Master Clock (Esoteric Or Cybershaft) with Shunyata Aloha Clock Cable.

[slowGEEZR]

Originally Posted by Charles

What is your system? What is your tracking force? What is your turntable/arm/cartridge? I'd be particularly interested in your tracking force, not to make any counter point but just to know how/if things have changed.

For example, I don't think vinyl can handle the dynamic range of a motion picture sound track like Aquaman. Of course most everything I say is just opinion. But it is a fact that every time you play a record, the grooves wear a little and as the grooves wear, the sound must change, unless I'm missing something.

Having said that I'm sure that vinyl has improved a lot. I'm sure that vinyl bass of today is adequate for most music but not for all. Vinyl is not going to do justice to notes 30 Hz and below at very high volume, IMO. A lot of folks have subs and want to hear these notes at high volume.

p.s. This may be why many have both vinyl and digital playback, i.e. to experience the best of both. I think I just made your point.

Charles

My system? Let's see, Wilson WP8, Pass Labs 100.5 amps, Pass Labs XP20 preamp, TTW GEM II, with a 42 lb. copper platter, BAT VK-P5 phono amp. Currently using my Soundsmith "The Voice" wood cartridge, rebuilt to current standards by Soundsmith. Tracking force I'm using is 1.5 grams. The digital side is irrelevant for this conversation, except to say it is pretty darn good, IMO, but no better than the best vinyl playback. Stereophile rated my DAC as Class A+when I bought it, but there have been many advances in DAC technology since then, though after I move, I am going to update it.

The cartridge has no trouble playing back the most dynamic records I own. It tracks wonderfully, which is because it has extremely low mass being suspended. Also, setup is key. Too many people don't realize the full potential of their analog rigs due to mediocre setup. I also use two subs (SVS-4000) and love bass and my system can play very low bass via records or digital. I currently have them set at 15db down, so as to blend in nicely.

Most new music is recorded digitally, so that is the way I purchase most newly recorded music. I have around 1700 record albums, which is not very many as compared to some of the posters here, but about 1000 of them have been purchased within the last dozen years, or so. I have close to 2 TB of digital music files. I would say that a higher percentage of them don't sound as good as the percentage of poor sounding records that I own. I am of the belief that the entire mastering through production is critical, in order to get great sound from either media. I have yet to hear older jazz via digital that beats the sound via records.

[ufguy73]

Originally Posted by PeterMusic

I'm all digital. But my son's $600 turntable and stylus sound approximately as good as my $6000 server and DAC when both are played through the rest of my system (using phono stage inside my Mc C22). I can tell the difference immediately, but I would not say that one is definitely better. So I've been thinking of dropping $6000 or so on a turntable...

One other important advantage of vinyl, at least for rock fans, is that vinyl has been relatively unscathed by the loudness wars that have harmed so many digital releases

Curious, are you thinking about $6k in the turntable because you think gains would be that much better relative to the $600 table?

Good point about the loudness issue - I had come across references to that in my readings and it was certainly disappointing. The whole issue of particular pressings/remasters, remastered from analog source vs digital, remixing, etc certainly add to the headaches of thinking about content.

Used to be I heard a song on the radio, went to the record store, took a look st the album, and bought it. Brought it home and put it on the stereo and that was pretty much it. If i liked it, I made a tape recording on a TDK so I could play it on my walkman when mowing lawns.

Originally Posted by For The Love of Music

You are not going to get a $1500 DAC to sound like a $15000 DAC and there’s nothing wrong with that, and the same when you have a $500 turntable compared to a $15000 table. But in either case you still will have the core on what we’re after, music!

Very much agree with this - and partly why I am so keen to balance keeping budget reasonable, while still be willing to spend to get a killer system to truly enjoy - but also potentially not going ‘all-in’ until I potentially experience more, given there don’t seem to be absolute/everyone loves and recognizes THIS is the component to get.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Okay, so I've read this entire thread with interest...

I'll weigh in with my 2¢, based what I'd do and my experiences with configuring a fairly sophisticated streaming digital front end this last 9 months or so.

1. DAC: I'd recommend getting a Schiit Yggdrasil with UNISON USB for $2500. As Dan pointed out in his review and Robert Harley wrote about it in his review at TAS, the Yggdrasil can fully compete with DACs at many times its price multiple. This is a component you should not dismiss because of the (relatively) low price compared to more expensive DACs.

2. Ethernet Switch: I don't know how you'll be getting content from digital sources, e.g. streaming services like Qobuz, Tidal, etc. or from ripped files from physical media, but whatever the music server is, but if its a laptop, desktop computer or NUC, put it somewhere well away from the audio rack. Like in another room. The farther away the bettter. Make sure the music server can support Roon and function as the Roon Core. Use an audio-grade Ethernet switch like the Uptone Audio EtherREGEN ($645) to transmit via copper Ethernet or OM-1 optical fiber to stream the data to a network bridge in your audio rack. If you use optical fiber in place of copper Ethernet (which I recommend), then you'll need a fiber media convertor like a Sonore Optical Module or another EtherREGEN in your audio rack to convert the optical data back to copper Ethernet to connect to the Network Bridge (unless you use a Lumin network bridge or a Sonore OpticalRendu).

3. Roon Core Music Server: $600-$1500: This can range from a Mac Mini (which I use) to an Intel NUC or Roon Nucleus Server. If I were to start over today, I'd build up an Intel NUC. A Roon Nucleus is just a fancy cased Intel NUC(NUCleus, get it? ), so I'd save the money and just put together an i5-based Intel NUC.

4. Network Bridge: SOtM SMS-200 UltraNeo, $1200 (your network bridge would accept copper Ethernet from your Roon/music server computer). Alternatively, you could go with the Innuous Zen, which would obviate the need for dedicated computer or NUC for pulling files either from a hard drive or a streaming service. Power it with a Keces P3 linear power supply, $395

So, we're at about ~$5200 investment at this point.

You're going to need cables, so I'd suggest Shunyata Research Alpha or Sigma Ethernet and USB cables. Lets go with Alpha, so that would be another $1600 for both the Ethernet and USB cable. Use the USB cable to connect from the network bridge to the DAC.

Total: $6800

Okay: Now for the Turntable: Get a Rega Planar 8. Oustanding turntable for the money that will produce superb-quality sound and let you decide if you want to do the whole vinyl thang. You can put any money you'd spend on a more expensive turntable into LPs. Or going to concerts, which would be even better. $3100 for the Rega; you can decide what cartridge you want to use. Throw a Lyra Delos on it for about $2K

So, now we're up to ~$12,000.

If you haven't done so already, invest in improving the quality of your power distribution. The improvement this can bring is not to underestimated: I'd would spend $5K on upgrading the quality of my power distribution over an upgraded component any day of the week. You'll get a much bigger improvement for the same investment. Get a Shunyata Denali 6000/S V2 or Hydra A12 power distributor, and Shunyata power cords for all components; toss those generic black power cords if you're using them. You can go whole hog on power cords up to $3-4K/each, but lets keep it really simple and start with a 5-pack Shunyata Venom HC V2 power cords for $885. Add another two ~$200 Shunyata Venom V14D Digital power cords for powering the network bridge PC and music server. Total for power: $3500+885+$400 = $4785.

So, at this point, all in, you're at about $17,000.

I'd start with this setup. It will provide truly superb, accurate, natural, and most importantly, engaging music, yet not be plagued with noise from the dreaded switch-mode power supplies causing clock phase noise or common mode noise, and you'll have very clean, quiet, dynamic power. You'll have a killer digital streaming front-end and DAC AND a killer vinyl setup, and you'll have a lot of money left over from either $25K-$45K. Take some of that money, go to Vienna, and attend a concert at the Musikverein.

From this point you can decide if you want to go further, or sit back and enjoy the music. If you decide to upgrade, you won't have ANY problems flipping this gear to a very happy buyer.

So...that's what I'd do: get in with some truly excellent but not über-high end and über-expensive gear, live with it a for a bit, enjoy it, and then decide where you want to go.

Wow - thank you so much for your detailed and thoughtful considerations, my friend!!

When i read this, initially, the logic really struck me and the idea itself (ie reasonably incurred cost, yet still well regarded, for both playbacks) really resonates.

I will think long and hard on both the sentiment and specifics. One question, right away...

i know the Schiit is very well regarded. I was a little wary of knowingly going into a digital platform that did not support MQA. I realize it’s debatable (both in terms of concept - which Schiit addresses fairly fully - and as a format, itself) but all things being equal I would prefer support for the format. After all, part of this would be the journey of hearing different playback, etc.

Is the Schiit so good, for the price point, that you guys would forego the MQA format entirely?

Also, how would you say the Rega compares to the MT2? There is some precedent for spousal approval on Mcintosh aesthetics that could be quite handy

Originally Posted by crwilli

Yes!

— Buy a current model Esoteric SACD player - anyone of them.
— Using whatever laptop you have available download and subscribe to ROON
— Buy a 1 TB portable USB Hard Drive
— Buy as many tracks as grab you you from HDTracks - Download them to the portable hard drive.
— Buy a few SACDs from Acoustic Sounds, Amazon etc. they are readily available.
— Buy a Shunyata Alpha USB cable
— Subscribe to Qobuz

Connect it all up, Configure ROON to find your portable Hard Drive and your acces your Qobuz subscription.

Press play!

SOME of the things you could change or add as part of the ongoing improvement journey. Don’t start here. Enjoy listening to and for, the improvements of each of these things. Don’t hear it, sell it.

— Upgrade your PC. Get a dedicated made for audio PC
— Upgrade your ethernet cables - separate research here.
— Add a Gigafoil/EtherReGen with Keces power supply.
— Add Stillpoints
— Add Master Clock (Esoteric Or Cybershaft) with Shunyata Aloha Clock Cable.

I love this, as well - and thanks so much for breaking out an initial path along with the future upgrade path to further consider!!

Could you speak a little more to the thinking of an Esoteric player? I assume suggestion is also for an integrated DAC, thus allowing playback of digital files through it as well?

On the consideration of an Esoteric - where are the logical ‘sweetspots’ where you think the step up to the next model in the line is clearly worth the extra coin?

Amy particular reason for the download file suggestion vs streaming? The latter would obviate the need for the home server, etc. so curious on this point.

And thanks again to everyone! Very helpful as i think about/through options!!

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by ufguy73

...

I love this, as well - and thanks so much for breaking out an initial path along with the future upgrade path to further consider!!



Could you speak a little more to the thinking of an Esoteric player? I assume suggestion is also for an integrated DAC, thus allowing playback of digital files through it as well?



On the consideration of an Esoteric - where are the logical ‘sweetspots’ where you think the step up to the next model in the line is clearly worth the extra coin?



Amy particular reason for the download file suggestion vs streaming? The latter would obviate the need for the home server, etc. so curious on this point.



And thanks again to everyone! Very helpful as i think about/through options!!

Yes, almost any certainly most, CD/SACD player will also allow you to connect an external Digital signal and convert it to an analog signal - Eg use it as a DAC.

Depends on what you want to spend. Perhaps $6000 for a used K-03X which gets you double DSD capability along with arguably the best disc spinner pedigree available would be a good target. You could look at a new K-05xs as a even newer technology, a warranty and potential benefits (I have no clue on $). If you want to spend more, likely any of the Esoteric players will give you great satisfaction of ownership.

As for downloading vs only streaming, That is my bias of wanting some feeling of ownership and the fact that I had a large legacy collection of CDs which I ripped to get my files started.

You could certainly just subscribe to Qobuz and not miss owning any of your music. Nobody would fault you for that given they stream in up to 24bit 192Hz streams. At some point, the quality of the source recording is more important than whether it is a CD, SACD or a stream of XX bits YYYhz.

Jump in.