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  #41  
Old 09-24-2020, 05:40 PM
Charles Charles is offline
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Which drivers were damaged specifically?
Both tweeters were ruined. I'm not sure of the other damage. Thiel covered the speakers under warranty. The CS5's went back to Thiel the next day. It seems that I went to the MC2600, the Sidney Cordesman amp (600 per ch), but I did not like the bass. It was fat/undamped. I kept the 2600 about a year or two before going with a FPB700cx, which did a great job on the Thiel's which I upgraded to the CS5i's with the improved woofers. I left Mac for about 10 years, resuming in maybe about 2004. I have been extremely satisfied with my 1.25KW's. I would not trade them for any amp on the market. The way they handle my XVX and Thor is exactly reminiscent of my Krell FPB700cx. The sound through the Mac is slightly more laid back, more relaxed but with great detail and the bass..., it simply could not be better, perfectly damped not bloated but generous.

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Charles
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  #42  
Old 09-24-2020, 05:44 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Both tweeters were ruined. I'm not sure of the other damage. Thiel covered the speakers under warranty. The CS5's went back to Thiel the next day. It seems that I went to the MC2600, the Sidney Cordesman amp (600 per ch), but I did not like the bass. It was fat/undamped. I kept the 2600 about a year or two before going with a FPB700cx, which did a great job on the Thiel's which I upgraded to The CS5i's with the improved woofers. I left mac for about 10 years, resuming in maybe about 2004. I have been extremely satisfied with my 1.25KW's. I would not trade them for any amp on the market. The way they handle my XVX and Thor is exactly reminiscent of my Krell FPB700cx. The sound through the Mac is slightly more laid back, more relaxed but with great detail and the bass..., it simply could not be better, perfectly damped not bloated but generous.

Best

Charles
That sounds like the power guard did not exactly do it’s job. It may have flickered its lights but blown tweeters are DC from the amp clipping hard... 1812 Overture is a great source for burnt out voice coils, heartaches and desires for amps with more testicular fortitude.
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  #43  
Old 09-24-2020, 06:02 PM
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62caddy 62caddy is offline
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Either that or it was simply too much power for the speakers in which case it wouldn't have mattered whether the amplifier was direct coupled or autoformer, with or without the benefit of PG.

We'll never know for certain but it should be noted that clipping is not necessarily a prerequisite for tweeter damage nor any other driver(s) for that matter.
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  #44  
Old 09-24-2020, 06:17 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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It is a silly endeavor to try to recreate the great Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture at home to begin with.

The typical and proper dynamic range an orchestra would achieve is approximately 110dB between the softest and loudest passages. A human ear registers every 10dB swing as approximately double or half as loud. An amplifier would need to double its power for every 3dB however and a speaker needs to dissipate it.... The best recording that I’m aware of is only 45dB anyway.

So much like Napoleon’s ambitious effort to conquer Russia and Tchaikovsky incredible 1812 Overture that puts the monumental battle to defeat France’s “great army” into a soul stirring musical presentation with all the drama that can be expressed in music, both Napoleon and any home music system will come up way short... (pun intended for vertically challenged Napoleon)
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  #45  
Old 09-24-2020, 07:10 PM
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62caddy 62caddy is offline
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I've often wondered where the "110 dB" figure for live orchestral performances comes from. Of the many (acoustic) concerts I've been to, never has the SPL come close to being as loud as most any hi fi system can play with ease- even when sitting within the first few seat rows. Maybe the musicians might be experiencing 110 dB at times but that's certainly not what the audience hears.

Last edited by 62caddy; 09-24-2020 at 07:13 PM.
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  #46  
Old 09-24-2020, 07:57 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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I've often wondered where the "110 dB" figure for live orchestral performances comes from. Of the many (acoustic) concerts I've been to, never has the SPL come close to being as loud as most any hi fi system can play with ease- even when sitting within the first few seat rows. Maybe the musicians might be experiencing 110 dB at times but that's certainly not what the audience hears.
110-115dB is the norm for “fortissimos” (passages marked and meant to be played very loud)

The way a properly designed acoustic hall sounds with musicians vs an enthusiast audio room with a typical plethora of lumpy speaker to room interactions are two very different things unfortunately. A home playback system can not recreate that range of dynamic contrast, not even close.

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/...lifier-output/
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  #47  
Old 09-25-2020, 08:09 AM
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110-115dB is the norm for “fortissimos” (passages marked and meant to be played very loud)

The way a properly designed acoustic hall sounds with musicians vs an enthusiast audio room with a typical plethora of lumpy speaker to room interactions are two very different things unfortunately. A home playback system can not recreate that range of dynamic contrast, not even close.

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/...lifier-output/
That would be true if the orchestra were playing in an anechoic chamber, not a concert hall where background noise is 25 dB (occupied).

Also keep in mind not all venues are acoustically equal.

https://www.peutz.nl/sites/peutz.nl/...caties/p80.pdf
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  #48  
Old 09-25-2020, 10:15 AM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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That would be true if the orchestra were playing in an anechoic chamber, not a concert hall where background noise is 25 dB (occupied).

Also keep in mind not all venues are acoustically equal.

https://www.peutz.nl/sites/peutz.nl/...caties/p80.pdf
We were discussing dynamic range of an orchestra vs home playback system? Your link talks about background noise? Sure there will be a bit of ambient noise in the hall with and without people but a typical audiophile room is not an anechouc chamber either.

What playback media would you use to achieve that 110-115dB range? Even 24 bit digital recordings fall way short of that.

SPL or loudness levels are a separate topic but in order to hear a true 120dB dynamic range or “spread” between the softest of tones to the loudest, what would need to happen?


Paul McGowan on dynamic range of speakers

https://youtu.be/xPrTIFTrVHo

Last edited by PHC1; 09-25-2020 at 10:22 AM.
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  #49  
Old 09-25-2020, 02:20 PM
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We were discussing dynamic range of an orchestra vs home playback system? Your link talks about background noise? Sure there will be a bit of ambient noise in the hall with and without people but a typical audiophile room is not an anechouc chamber either.
Only pointing out the DR of a live orchestra concert isn't what is being suggested and you're also correct in pointing out few recorded media have DR as wide to begin with.

One small detail omitted in the article you cited
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/...lifier-output/

...he should have pointed out the sensitivity/output figures are for a single speaker. The figures provided in his table should be adjusted +3 dB for a pair.
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  #50  
Old 09-25-2020, 02:39 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Only pointing out the DR of a live orchestra concert isn't what is being suggested and you're also correct in pointing out few recorded media have DR as wide to begin with.

One small detail omitted in the article you cited
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/...lifier-output/

...he should have pointed out the sensitivity/output figures are for a single speaker. The figures provided in his table should be adjusted +3 dB for a pair.
It’s all academic anyways. As much as we like fidelity, it is still very much a reality that the bulk of our listening is at home. I’m ok with it... I’m even ok with listening to my favorite music while driving with the roof open in my Wrangler. The rest is simply a “treat” like it’s supposed to be in life?
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