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Shunyata Research Designing Silent Systems for recording, film and music

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Old 11-03-2018, 10:48 PM
robd2 robd2 is offline
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Default With Denali 6000t Slight Loss of Dynamics?

Doing an in home demo with a 6000t. Very impressive how it cleans up the music top to bottom. I like it a lot. The downside, I知 absolutely losing some dynamics. I started with just my preamp (VAC) connected to bank 2 and my small McIntosh amp in the HC bank. Putting the amp back to the wall helped some but not completely and of course I lose some of the Denali magic.

Has anyone else experienced this? I知 going to try moving my preamp to the HC bank next. As a FYI I知 using an Alpha HC cord from wall to Denali.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:18 AM
robd2 robd2 is offline
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One extra detail, my preamp, the VAC Signature SE line stage is, in effect, a small, zero-feedback, class-A, triode POWER amplifier with a step-down output transformer.

Maybe this draws more than a traditional preamp?
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Last edited by robd2; 11-04-2018 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:26 AM
rnrmf1971 rnrmf1971 is offline
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Consider changing the power cable that connects the Denali to the wall.
For me, in my experience, I wouldn't use anything below the Sigma (if you want to stay with Shunyata), based on my experience with Shunyata power cables.
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Old 11-04-2018, 02:10 PM
jpgr4blu jpgr4blu is online now
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I agree with rnrmf1971 that you should use the best PC into the Denali. I have a Sigma going into my Triton 3. Nevertheless, when I compare my amps going into the Triton 3 vs into the wall, there is a noticeable loss in dynamics with the Triton 3 as I would imagine there will be with virtually any power conditioner. But the Triton 3 (and Typhon) do wonders for everything else--source components, TV, etc.
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:48 PM
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j3brow j3brow is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgr4blu View Post
I agree with rnrmf1971 that you should use the best PC into the Denali. I have a Sigma going into my Triton 3. Nevertheless, when I compare my amps going into the Triton 3 vs into the wall, there is a noticeable loss in dynamics with the Triton 3 as I would imagine there will be with virtually any power conditioner. But the Triton 3 (and Typhon) do wonders for everything else--source components, TV, etc.


I知 kinda shocked to read this, regarding loss of dynamics, with Sigma, Tv3, and Typhon. I知 positive Shunyata claims NO loss. I know audioquest claims NO loss. Maybe wishful thinking on my part but I have believed that today痴 top shelf conditioners/regenerations did not suffer from choking the power amplifiers. If I lay down the better part of $18k for Tv3/TQR, I want it to power everything, including amps!
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Old 11-05-2018, 03:33 AM
jpgr4blu jpgr4blu is online now
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J3brow
Yes, I was told the same thing and read the same thing. Until I experimented. In my room, the difference is not subtle. I cannot speak for anybody else but urge anyone with a power conditioner to try it with and without the amps plugged into it vs the wall and make a decision.
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Old 11-05-2018, 12:47 PM
GrantS GrantS is offline
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Hi Robd2.

Regarding the Denali and your system. VAC pre-amps are generally harder draw pre-amps than other models, so applying that to the HC outlet would without question improve the performance in that area. For those with a stereo-amp and a pre-amp, I generally recommend the amp and pre-amp go through the HC duplex on a Denali.

For the bigger picture, understanding instantaneous current sensitivity and the relationship peak current has on sound and system-performance has been our primary design focus since the inception of our company. Virtually everything we do, first considers preserving the original electrical signal

For us, maintaining DTCD performance is our primary design directive well ahead of noise reduction, which is why we measure and test that aspect of parts and materials relentlessly. This is the reason we chose a passive electrical system design approach with no chokes, coils, transformers or other active devices that can degrade peak-current. For these same reasons we designed our own solid copper outlets, solid copper AC connectors, low-measured impedance wiring, massive buss systems and the Patented QR/BB module.

Having done all of that, we can also say definitively that there is no getting around contact-resistance; meaning _literally_ any additional electrical junction (no matter how perfect or pure) that sits between your amplifier or higher draw pre-amp will add some form of contact-resistance. Depending heavily on the component/s design, contact-resistance may not be noticeable at all, or may be notable when compared to a direct connection.

The vast majority of Tv3/Typhon QR owners we speak with for example, have zero complaints and run amps through that system with no downside. In fact many found the performance in the area of dynamics improved. Some Tv3 system owners say there's a trade off when comparing amps on their own dedicated lines versus all through one AC line on the Tv3 (with the rest of the system). That makes sense, because they are comparing the entire system on one twenty-amp line, versus placing each amp on its own, or together on another separate line-- essentially comparing the entire system on 20A, versus spread over 40A or 60A of isolated current. That will likely favor the dedicated line system approach in terms of dynamics for high-draw monos.

There is no company I'm aware of that put's less in front of instantaneous current or spends more time and money on parts-design, measurement and tech development (11 Patents) that we do in the interest of preserving the original signal and eliminating the effect of contact-impedance on audio systems.

For those that want more info on DTCD and our study of current dynamics, here is a link to one of Caelin's posts from another forum:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...plained.16172/

I've been helping customers dial in their perfect connections based on their system and what they wish to achieve for almost 20 years, so if you have questions about what to connect where based on your AC, or the best products for your system and budget, Richard and I are always available as is Caelin in a consulting role.

Feel free to e-mail or call if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Grant
Shunyata Research

Last edited by GrantS; 11-05-2018 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 11-05-2018, 12:54 PM
rnrmf1971 rnrmf1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3brow View Post
I’m kinda shocked to read this, regarding loss of dynamics, with Sigma, Tv3, and Typhon. I’m positive Shunyata claims NO loss. I know audioquest claims NO loss. Maybe wishful thinking on my part but I have believed that today’s top shelf conditioners/regenerations did not suffer from choking the power amplifiers. If I lay down the better part of $18k for Tv3/TQR, I want it to power everything, including amps!
I can't make the claim whether dynamics are restricted or not. I don't really think about it like that because I don't know what the dynamics of a recording are supposed to be.

I consider it more like the difference between power cables on a component - some have a greater perception of extension, depth, power, transparency, and yes, dynamics - all subjective to individual listeners. Adding a power conditioner/distributor is going to change things compared to plugging directly into the wall or changing the power cable on the component. That's just how things seem to go in this hobby, and depending how obsessive one is about every little change, it will have a varying level of importance to someone.

So with regard to Shunyata power distributors/conditioners and their power cables, I only started using them when my demo of their products no longer made the music less enjoyable. That happened at the Triton V2 with the Typhon and with the Sigma HC power cable. The first Triton and the power cables before and below the Sigma didn't sound good to me because of my subjective preferences.

But I'm not sure that they sounded better to me because they did or didn't restrict dynamics, per se.
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Last edited by rnrmf1971; 11-05-2018 at 02:41 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:19 PM
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I run an Audioquest Naigara 5000 rather than a Denali. That said, I have tried several different C19 power cables between the 5000 and my dedicated 20A line and each had an effect.

I started with a Venom HC and later tried a Taipan Alpha Helix (improved midrange but less bass impact), Python Zitron (improved bass over the Taipan) and finally settled on a Alpha NR. The NR was the best of the lot by a significant margin.

Despite what AQ says about the HC power factor correction, I still prefer the Parasound JC5 connected directly to the wall via a Alpha HC.

I haven't tried the Denali - I originally bought the 5000 because I wanted more outlets. I wish I had tried the Denali 6000 though. The Shunyata's products are I own (Alpha NR, Delta NR, Alpha HC) are all fabulous products.
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