AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Manufacturers Forums > McIntosh Audio

McIntosh Audio A Tradition of Excellence

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-18-2019, 01:24 PM
alkizz alkizz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 307
Default To bi-amp or not, that is the question

Hi AA!

Was chatting with Ivan about my setup and we started down a path on bi-amping my Cantons. The specific scenario we were going through was to connect the monoblock MC2301's to the highs and mids (I love tube sound) and then to add a MC452 or MC462 to the lows.

Trying to get a sense of what to expect if I went this direction and if the potential gains would be noticeable.

This would be a passive bi-amp scenario as I still would like the speaker crossovers to do their thing. The Cantons have physically separated crossovers and would have no issues with the extra "umph" doing this would bring.

the connections would run from the C1100 to MC2301 left and right. Then from each MC2301 via Balanced XLR to a single MC452 (or 462).

Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-18-2019, 02:23 PM
4music 4music is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alkizz View Post
Hi AA!

Was chatting with Ivan about my setup and we started down a path on bi-amping my Cantons. The specific scenario we were going through was to connect the monoblock MC2301's to the highs and mids (I love tube sound) and then to add a MC452 or MC462 to the lows.

Trying to get a sense of what to expect if I went this direction and if the potential gains would be noticeable.

This would be a passive bi-amp scenario as I still would like the speaker crossovers to do their thing. The Cantons have physically separated crossovers and would have no issues with the extra "umph" doing this would bring.

the connections would run from the C1100 to MC2301 left and right. Then from each MC2301 via Balanced XLR to a single MC452 (or 462).

Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.
Bi-amping is great. But how will you match the gain of two different amps? I would stick to identical amps. If you want tubes, then go with two stereo amps like the new MC2152. Even less money than what you had planned initially.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-18-2019, 03:33 PM
alkizz alkizz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 307
Default

What happens when the gain doesn't match?

The only gain setting is on the C1100.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-18-2019, 04:13 PM
alkizz alkizz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 307
Default

The manual for my 2301's seems to indicate that it's no problem to bi-amp with a different McIntosh Amp.

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-18-2019, 04:25 PM
Kal Rubinson Kal Rubinson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,588
Default

Only if the two have identical gain. Since the only gain control is on the preamp, it cannot compensate for a difference in the two amps.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-18-2019, 04:35 PM
alkizz alkizz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 307
Default

Thank you. I can find the gain on the MC462 but not the 2301... any ideas where to find that?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-18-2019, 05:03 PM
Higgens Higgens is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: SW Idaho
Posts: 1,117
Default

The Berners site is a good place to look for Mc specs.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-18-2019, 05:42 PM
W9TR's Avatar
W9TR W9TR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Neutral Zone
Posts: 4,665
Default

From the MC 2301 Owner's Manual:
Ei=3.4 Vrms (balanced input) for 300 Watts into 8 Ohms.
Eo=SQRT(P*R)
Eo=48.99 Vrms

Gain in dB=20*Log10(Eo/Ei)
Gain in dB=20*Log10(48.99/3.4)
Gain in dB=23.17 dB

From the MC 462 Owner's Manual
4.2 Vrms (balanced input) for 450 Watts into 8 ohms
Eo=60 Vrms
Gain=23 dB

Close enough!

Now what's confusing is the gain spec in the 462 manual shows the following:
Voltage Gain
29dB, 8 Ohms
26dB, 4 Ohms
23dB, 2 Ohms

But they don't state if the gain is measured from the balanced or unbalanced input. If you do the math you'll find it is measured from the unbalanced input. I calculated gain from the balanced input, so my calculations are correct. McIntosh should specify which input they use to measure gain.

Either way, if you are consistent in the use of balanced/unbalanced inputs and output transformer taps the gain of these amplifiers is the same.
Happy Bi-amping!

Tom
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v

Last edited by W9TR; 05-18-2019 at 06:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-18-2019, 05:46 PM
Kal Rubinson Kal Rubinson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alkizz View Post
Thank you. I can find the gain on the MC462 but not the 2301... any ideas where to find that?
No. It is not in the product spec nor in the user's manual. Shameful behavior.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-18-2019, 07:14 PM
Masterlu's Avatar
Masterlu Masterlu is online now
AA Founder, Legend AV Owner



 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: South FL & Cape Cod MA
Posts: 78,484
Default

You will have some additional gain control by using the different output taps on your Amps if needed.
__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:29 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video