The fate of Hi-End Audio?

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

First off, our best selling products by unit are Sasha DAW and Sabrina, not WAMM and XVX. Private jets exist but are very much the exception.

Some dealers who fit your concerns are no longer Wilson dealers. We have also eliminated some who moved from retail to home based over the past decade. All in an effort to address your stated concerns and to recreate the gathering places that high end audio store were decades ago. It is an ongoing and long term project.

If you go to the dealer section of our website, you will also notice how many of our dealers have a more than reasonable selection of demo models. We do not expect everyone to have everything. We do expect a good representation. But since we do not try to tell someone where they have to shop, the client is free to buy where he is most comfortable.

We're far from perfect but we do try to treat our clients fairly and we try to provide the highest level of service we can.

Wilson has always had outstanding products that have only matured and became more refined with every generation. I really enjoyed the few pairs that I got to spend time with over the years. My dealer was always more than fair and generous making the “vertical upgrade” path extremely easy with no worries about taking a hit on resale. I have always had tremendous respect for Wilson for both performance, overall value (in audiophile terms), customer support and overall ethics.

In a perfect world I wouldn’t change a thing about the model as far as audio boutiques go and how things used to be. I have many great memories of the late 80’s and up. It was a great time to be an enthusiastic audiophile. Sadly that’s not exactly the reality of things anymore. Nothing lasts forever. I still have fond memories of you Bill setting up those killer Sonus Faber demos at my local dealer. Of course Peter was also setting up killer Wilson demos too later on and his selection of music was top notch.

But as far as my own attitude , it has also changed and I am no longer chasing some perfection or the elusive audio nirvana I once was. I am simply happy with my current system. It plays music and that’s all that matters to me anymore. Good enough has really become “good enough” for a change.

I really hope this blows over and people can get back to their lives with minimal damage to their well-being and the economy in general but we all know it won’t be exactly easy. The world changes and this will certainly shake things up and put many to the test.

Anyways, now I’m just rambling, quarantine will do that

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Makes perfect sense with a few caveats

First as recessions go high end audio (at least since the 70's) is almost always last in and first out, lagging behind cars going in and leading them coming out.

As for business, Wilson was on pace for it's best Q1 ever until mid March. We still had a great Q1, but it was the inability of clients worldwide to take delivery/have installed their speakers that slowed us. Q2 will undoubtedly show a slowdown but as (if) we find ways around the delivery issues, it will likely not be so deep as Porsche has already experienced. I guess that is one advantage of a stay at home slowdown.

Wilson is very fortunate. We are located in an area not hard hit by the virus, at least not yet. About half of our production staff wear respirators as part of their job. Further, maintaining 10-12 foot distances in the factory is not difficult for any part of production. Even so, staggering shifts and production sections extends that. Many employees live in rural areas where their nearest neighbor is quite a ways away. So we are blessed to be operating. Time will tell whether we have to alter that or not.

Obviously you never know with the course of the pandemic. But if there is one thing that is definitely true in these types of situations: one size DOES NOT fit all.

Lastly Porsche certainly seems to have its priorities straight. Hard to argue with those.

Glad to hear it Bill. Stay safe, this will blow over and we can all go back to firing on all cylinders.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Anyways, now I’m just rambling, quarantine will do that

Haha. After traveling to NY, Switzerland, and Seattle in early March, I returned to Utah only to be banished from the factory by Daryl on March 13. No old guys allowed!! I've been working from home since then. I can relate to the stir crazy of quarantine.

Be safe Serge!

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Haha. After traveling to NY, Switzerland, and Seattle in early March, I returned to Utah only to be banished from the factory by Daryl on March 13. No old guys allowed!! I've been working from home since then. I can relate to the stir crazy of quarantine.

Be safe Serge!

Likewise Bill! Stay safe, stay productive and keep your sanity. That seems to be the difficult part now for many

[cleeds]

Originally Posted by PHC1

... The audiophile will always find a way to justify any cost when it comes to gear.

I'm not sure what that has to do with your claims of "insane" markups in high end audio. And I don't think you really mean that audiophiles don't have budgets.

Originally Posted by PHC1

... Some can make a great sounding DAC for $1200, others think $60k is “reasonable” price as well. Just don’t do too many double blind tests and don’t ask for raw price breakdown. You’ll be ridiculed.

What on earth does blind testing have to do with your claim of "insane" markups?

As for your claim that I'd be ridiculed after such an excercise, that's impossible:

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

Eleanor Roosevelt

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by cleeds

I'm not sure what that has to do with your claims of "insane" markups in high end audio. And I don't think you really mean that audiophiles don't have budgets.



What on earth does blind testing have to do with your claim of "insane" markups?

As for your claim that I'd be ridiculed after such an excercise, that's impossible:

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

Eleanor Roosevelt

I thought it was pretty obvious. I guess not but that’s typical for an audiophile.

Double blind tests have always proved our “weakness” as audiophiles. It is 95% illusion created by all our senses combined together. Isolate the one sense we need (our hearing) while others are out of the game (keeping everything else unknown) and everything falls apart.

If someone puts you in a car but it is under camouflage with no identifying marks and you cannot hear the exhaust or see any other identifying characteristics, you will not be able to tell if it is a Ferrari or a Corvette. It’s fast you will say, it handles great, must be a Ferrari or... it could be a Corvette.. or it could be a Lamborghini, maybe it is a Dodge with a Hemi? At this point you would say it was a fantastic experience without prejudice. Repeat the experiment. Technically whatever it is it is great but the moment the covers are lifted, a Ferrari will still be the object of desire even-though it is 4x the price of a Corvette.

It’s no different for blind wine tasting among the experts. It’s no different among professional violin players that could not tell a $5M Stradivarius from a cheap violin.

Now take 3 DAC’s including your favorite and do a blind test. What are the odds you will be able to pick yours out blind every time? Almost nonexistent. Please don’t tell me an aging audiophile has better hearing than a younger professional violinist who could not tell the difference with neither the violin nor with our audio toys. It’s been tried and proven.

So a $1200 DAC from Schiit audio for example obviously has a profit built in and so does a $60k DAC. Raw material cost? Please.. let’s not go there. So what is it? R&D cost? Manufacturing cost? Sure, manufacturing of a nice CNC machined case is not cheap but a Lexus builds you a whole car for $60k and manages to stay in business.


Why do I even bring this up which has been obvious from day 1 of this hobby?

Well, let’s say that the way I see it, the younger generations, unlike baby boomers and Gen X’ers are not perceiving these things the way we are. Sure, disposable income is a factor but I believe they are more performance and perceived value driven and are much less intrigued by the allure of high ticket items that bring diminished returns on investment among other factors.

As an experiment, some years back, I asked both of my sons who grew up around my ever changing systems and constant music in the house, what would be their dream systems, cost no object. While they both were quite familiar with my gear and what’s out there, the answer made me pause and think. They both picked a very humble and value oriented system. $100k turntables were definitely NOT mentioned. They both added that exuberant cost would not bring any “more” enjoyment out of listening to music... A simple and elegant integrated system would suffice. In fact later on I had these types of conversations with the 20 and 30 year olds who are into headphones. Very few even mentioned they had desires to build a system. That’s not to say they didn’t spend money on the rather expensive headphones, amps and dacs.

It is already quite noticeable that the newer generations clearly have different priorities in life as well.

As I already mentioned before, going forward, would be wise for high end audio manufactures to somehow adjust to the Millennial mentality, the “baby boomer” models are not going to be the answer forever. Schiit Audio for example, very much appeals to the younger generations. No nonsense products and a solid value. is there a future for those (hypothetical) selling $60k DACs and $100k turntables? Yes, the profit margins from each piece make it easier for them to survive, at least for now. Cable manufactures especially.

[W9TR]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

One thing I would point out that is a large flaw with the home based dealer concept is that very often, high end customers do not want to shop in someone's residence. We find that the farther up the food chain you go, the less likely the high end client is to want to buy this way. Certainly there are exceptions.

I've been to a couple of home based dealers and the experience has been wildly variable. More than true B&M stores, the experience is totally dependent on the principal's personality and proclivities. As home based dealer, you really have to be super personable and open to a lot of the vagaries that walk in the door disguised as customers.

[cleeds]

Originally Posted by PHC1

... Double blind tests have always proved our “weakness” as audiophiles. It is 95% illusion ...

It is all an illusion.

Originally Posted by PHC1

... Now take 3 DAC’s including your favorite and do a blind test. What are the odds you will be able to pick yours out blind every time?

Who cares? That's not how I choose audio equipment. I've been a subject in a few DBT experiments, by the way, so I actually have some experience with the process. They have been interesting exercises, but DBTs are not "The fate of High End Audio" which is what I thought this thread was about.

Originally Posted by PHC1

Please don’t tell me an aging audiophile has better hearing than a younger professional violinist who could not tell the difference with neither the violin nor with our audio toys.

I'd never suggest such a thing.

Originally Posted by PHC1

... going forward, would be wise for high end audio manufactures to somehow adjust to the Millennial mentality ...

I agree completely. But that isn't likely to include DBTs.

[urbanluthier]

Personally, my primary consideration when purchasing a high quality audio product is reliability and local support. If the manufacturer can't stand behind their product for a decade or more (i.e. service and stock parts for repair) then I won't even consider them.

[cleeds]

Originally Posted by urbanluthier

... my primary consideration when purchasing a high quality audio product is reliability and local support. If the manufacturer can't stand behind their product for a decade or more (i.e. service and stock parts for repair) then I won't even consider them.

Reliability and support are absolute requirements for me, too. I'd rather let others test the johnny-come-latelys than roll the dice myself. And maybe part of the reason that I don't agree that the industry suffers from "insane" profit margins is because I've benefited from that support, often for products that are many decades old.

I think that - much, much more often than not - you get what you pay for. Those who respond with objections to things like $60,000 cables commit the logical fallacy of the excluded middle.