Accuphase DG58 Necessity or Novelty

[nvp]

Mattia, regarding your comments about the soundstage of the B&W and Pioneer speakers, I should say that it is a consequence of the different designs employed in the two speakers.

In the B&Ws speakers, the small midrange enclosure with the tweeter on top aims at having a wide dispersion. As a result the speakers interact more with the room which will create a soundstage that is more enveloping. In the Pioneers, the midrange cone acts as a horn (i.e. a wave guide) for the tweeter. This limits the dispersion and thus the interaction with the room. This creates a more precise soundstage which however is less enveloping and somewhat darker/colder. There is no correct or wrong way here. It is a matter of preference. Some prefer to have the feeling they are in the studio monitoring the recording (Pioneer), others prefer the feeling of being in a “venue" listening the performance of the artist (B&W). Of course, the venue here is one's room, so in this sense the wide dispersion approach is the less “accurate” approach as it is more affected by reflections in the room (room correction system usually do not correct the late reflections). However, in spite of being "less accurate", the wide dispersion approach yields sound that most often is perceived by our ears as more relaxing/natural.

[Mattia]

nvp

Yes, the DG can give the extra quality step in a situation that is already very good, with added functions, and is very user friendly.
In a bad or problematic situation, it is possible that it can help a bit, but if you push it, it is likely to make the situation worse.

The miniDSP can take a system that has some problems, even big ones, and make it sound to good levels. In this situation, what it can do is really incredibile. But let's not forget that you find Dirac in situations far from typical hi-fi: car audio, speakers engineered from the start to be DSP corrected, etc.
Here a nice and quite long discussion with the CEO of Dirac [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zEKoJAKFbM[/ame]

In my case, only with the S-2ex I can say that the two correction are very similar... if I absolutely have to really choose the best, I'd say it is still Dirac. But the DG-58 with these speakers is close enough to use it for the summentioned added features and functionality.


Regarding speakers soundstage, it is a very interesting topic and I agree that is mostly a matter of taste. I like the effect of a very large stage as with the 801 S3, it is impressive. But then sometimes is also less credible. For example when you ear a drum kit that goes left to right and viceversa (as in Hotel California, first edition, near mid of the song) it is somewhat strange that this drum is 5 meters wide and covers almost al the area from my left to my right. Spectacular, yes, but also a bit strange

I think a prefer the monitor way, maybe a bit less spectacular, but often more credibile to me ad for the music I listen to (I very rarely listen to big orchestras for example, but very often to piano&violin sonatas, and for those and how they are generally recorded, I prefer the monitor way). Next step would probabily be some 100% TAD speakers, not just the drivers.

[nvp]

Thanks for the video Mattia. I finally had time to look at the whole thing and I have found it very interesting. It is funny to see that the CEO of a company which is striving to improve the way music is reproduced is using a pair of apple bugs as headphones.

I too prefer the monitor presentation. Regarding, the 5 meter wide drum kit, I know exactly what you mean. There are also pianos that are 3-4 meter wide. The way the speakers have been positioned in a room is certainly one of the reasons for this unrealistic illusion. However, this happens also because the recording was not done properly.

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by Mattia

Regarding speakers soundstage, it is a very interesting topic and I agree that is mostly a matter of taste. I like the effect of a very large stage as with the 801 S3, it is impressive. But then sometimes is also less credible. For example when you ear a drum kit that goes left to right and viceversa (as in Hotel California, first edition, near mid of the song) it is somewhat strange that this drum is 5 meters wide and covers almost al the area from my left to my right. Spectacular, yes, but also a bit strange

I will tell you a little secret. It's not uncommon that audio engineers in rock/pop music studio productions deliberately stretch the drum kit over the whole stage from left to right.
A good monitor should exactly show, what the guys in the studio have done. No more, no less. Whether you like it or not.

Martin

[Mattia]

Yes, and my idea is to have a system (gear, speakers and room) that add less possible of its own to the sound. And yes, we are tied to the productions.

But the 801 S3 are systematically "larger" than the S-2ex. Yesterday I invited a friend to my home.
He works as sound engineer for the Swiss Italian TV, and when we listen to some material he produced with both speakers pairs, he said that in his opinion the "right" stage, what he had in mind when he positioned the various elements, would lie in the middle of the two presentations. AHHHH, audio is difficult to get right

Then we tried repositioning and rotating the speakers, and we got them a bit more similar regarding soundstage, but the 801 are still always a bit larger then S-2ex. Now I am undecided witch speakers use in audio room system and witch in the living room system (given the looks of the 801 S3, my girlfriend has a bit more strong opinion ). I am also waiting for a pair of Northcreek junior crossover for the 801 S3 to try, then I'll decide.

(The impressive thing of the evening is that with Dirac you can get a "listenable" sound even using one 801 S3 for on channel and one S2-ex for the other. Is really incredible how it manipulates the sound.)

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by Mattia

Yes, and my idea is to have a system (gear, speakers and room) that add less possible of its own to the sound. And yes, we are tied to the productions.

I fully agree: no sound, just truly natural music. Hi-Fi according to its definition: do not add nor loose anything from the original musical performance.
But then, in some way, sound recording has also a lot to do with manipulation.

Originally Posted by Mattia

But the 801 S3 are systematically "larger" than the S-2ex. Yesterday I invited a friend to my home.
He works as sound engineer for the Swiss Italian TV, and when we listen to some material he produced with both speakers pairs, he said that in his opinion the "right" stage, what he had in mind when he positioned the various elements, would lie in the middle of the two presentations. AHHHH, audio is difficult to get right

Then we tried repositioning and rotating the speakers, and we got them a bit more similar regarding soundstage, but the 801 are still always a bit larger then S-2ex. Now I am undecided witch speakers use in audio room system and witch in the living room system (given the looks of the 801 S3, my girlfriend has a bit more strong opinion ). I am also waiting for a pair of Northcreek junior crossover for the 801 S3 to try, then I'll decide.

(The impressive thing of the evening is that with Dirac you can get a "listenable" sound even using one 801 S3 for on channel and one S2-ex for the other. Is really incredible how it manipulates the sound.)

Dirac, DG-58 (and Trinnov) are professional tools, which are far from being common place in private homes.

Maybe the differences in stage reflect the different dispersion angles of your speakers. The 801 S3 is a large (far-field?) monitor speaker with a relatively wide and even dispersion, whereas the S-2ex leans more towards a mid-field or even near-field monitor, where a somewhat narrower dispersion is fully sufficient and even wanted. Requirements for large and near-field monitors are not necessarily the same.

Back in November 2006, the Swiss magazine Home Electronic published a report about the new RTSI production studio situated close to the auditorium in Lugano.
They used five 802D (first diamond series) plus two K+H (Klein + Hummel) subwoofer equipped with room correction, and all this in a purpose built studio environment (sigh). Maybe your friend was missing the center speaker, or the higher damping of the studio environment.

When I changed from 801 S3 to 800 Diamond (D2), my personal impression was (and still is), that the soundstage was opening up in all three directions, but I did not have the feeling that imaging was blown up or changing proportions.

Martin

[Mattia]

I fully agree: no sound, just truly natural music. Hi-Fi according to its definition: do not add nor loose anything from the original musical performance.
But then, in some way, sound recording has also a lot to do with manipulation.

Absolutely, and on recording we don't have the possibility to change, we have to take what they decide, so at least I prefer to reproduce as close as possible to the original.

Is the same with video, but there I find way easier to reach the "standard".

I am thinking about hiring someone that can re-design my audio room regarding acoustic. For now I've invested quite a lot in RPG panels etc., but a precise study about acoustic in my room, maybe re arrange the panels, create an inclined wall or so on would be a very nice upgrade.

Problem is that it is difficult to find one: normally they do way bigger project, rarely home audio rooms...

Dirac, DG-58 (and Trinnov) are professional tools, which are far from being common place in private homes.

Too bad, because they considerably improve the sound: even with an humble miniDSP 22, with careful measures, one can obtain some very nice results.


Regarding the differences in stage between 801 S3 and S-2ex, I think you are perfectly right.
But apart from the stage differences, after a couple of weeks of comparing the two, I must admit I am still undecided to what to keep in the first system.
*After EQ*
The S2-ex have something better in the mid (maybe just a bit more presence?) and a slightly sweeter but a bit recessed tweeter, but in bass department I like way more the 801. Not only they go lower, but also at the same not-too-low frequency, I "feel" more the bass with the 801, even if they are about at the same spl.
I don't know if it is a difference caused by the quite different woofer size (18cm vs 30cm) and cabinet volume, but for example an 80Hz note at the same 75dB, is not the same between the two speakers. On the 801 is more present and natural, while on the S-2ex seems more "forced". I don't know how to explain the feeling, but for me is quite an important aspect to consider.

Now I am waiting for the new 801 S3 crossovers, that are a bug I have since I acquired the 801. I'll ear the difference they make (if they make a difference) when they arrive. Sadly on certain things the only way to know for sure is to try, because you don't find precise analysis anywhere.

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by Mattia

But apart from the stage differences, after a couple of weeks of comparing the two, I must admit I am still undecided to what to keep in the first system.
*After EQ*
The S2-ex have something better in the mid (maybe just a bit more presence?) and a slightly sweeter but a bit recessed tweeter, but in bass department I like way more the 801. Not only they go lower, but also at the same not-too-low frequency, I "feel" more the bass with the 801, even if they are about at the same spl.
I don't know if it is a difference caused by the quite different woofer size (18cm vs 30cm) and cabinet volume, but for example an 80Hz note at the same 75dB, is not the same between the two speakers. On the 801 is more present and natural, while on the S-2ex seems more "forced". I don't know how to explain the feeling, but for me is quite an important aspect to consider.

Please do not forget that your 801 S3 are just the latest pre-Nautilus design and as such about 25 years old.

Your description of the sound of the 801 fully corresponds with my own experience (I used the box from 1993 until 2011 on my old Accuphase system).
In the mid, the 801 does sound a little closed in and slightly distant (good for classical music, lacking some of the desired forwardness for other music styles).
The 801 tweeter is Alu, whereas the Pioneer/TAD tweeter is Beryllium, a few steps closer to B&W's current diamond tweeter (the harder the material, the smoother the sound).
The low end of the 801 always had more "stomach", naturalness and ease than smaller speakers (e.g. 802).
An 800 D2 has that stomach. That is why I preferred it over the 802 D2. Compared to the 801 S3, the D2 generation also has a much more open mid and the fantastic diamond tweeter.

I recently heared the 803 D3 again. Its precision and naturalness are startling and IMHO a big step forward over the D2. But for my taste, the 803 D3 do not have enough of the stomach I desire.
So I'm eagerly waiting to hear an 802 D3 and eventually the 50th anniversary 800 D3 of course.

I can only suggest you go and hear the 803 D3 with electronics you are familiar with, to get some idea of how the mids and highs can sound like. For the stomach, you'd probably have to wait for the 802 D3 or eventually the 800 D3 (next summer, so we are not in a hurry).

Originally Posted by Mattia

Sadly on certain things the only way to know for sure is to try, because you don't find precise analysis anywhere.

"Listen, and you will see" (B&W ad).
Trying, that's what good shops are for.

Martin

[Mattia]

Please do not forget that your 801 S3 are just the latest pre-Nautilus design and as such about 25 years old.

Oh yes, I always keep that in mind and I must say that the fact they still sound good is a testament of an high quality and well engineered product.
The big drawback many see in these speakers is in the looks, but then it is also why I could pick up locally a mint pair for 1'800 CHF

Regarding evolution between 801 Matrix and Nautilus, I find this B&W paper really interesting:
http://www.hifiportal.co.uk/articles...ilus%20801.pdf

The thing that strikes me is this passage at page 15 ("Bass" section):

One remarkable fact was consistently noticed during the development of the new 380mm bass unit for the NautilusTM801, and that was that a single large and stiff bass cone always sounded better than a number of smaller cones, even though they may well have had the same aggregated properties.

But then, after one generation of 801 Diamond, they stopped producing the 801 model. Somebody said to me that it was above all because it didn't sell well at all, not too much because the big bass driver doesn't have his merits regarding sound. But I don't know.


Anyway, to return to the 801 S3 and keep connected to the thread topic, I see a peculiar behaviour of the mid cone with active EQ.

It is somewhat allergic to active DSP, meaning that it has little margin before starting to distort, but that is true much more withe the DG-58 than with Dirac, were one has quite a bigger margin to "work" with.
I tried every possible EQ setting, and the result is that to not have the mid distort with DG-58, I have to "null" with EQ quite a lot of the Voicing done by the 58 in the mid frequency range (With miniDSP 22 I can have a flatter response in that range without problems).
But it is really not a big deal, because I happen to like the 801 presentation without active EQ, save for the too strong bass in my room, that I keep corrected in the EQ curve.

Trying, that's what good shops are for.

Absolutely (room differences apart), but in that sentence I referred to the Northcreek crossovers for the 801 S3, that are practically impossible to listen to before buying one pair

[jororupp]

I recently had the opportunity to test the DG-58 for a couple of days. I have to admit that I just put it between pre- and power amp as suggested by Accuphase and did the "quick and dirty" automatic voicing measurement and adjustment. It worked fine so far and brought some improvement, especially improving bass performance and correcting the asymmetry in the positioning of my speakers.
However, when owning the DG-58, a meticulous and time consuming measurement of the room and the speaker characteristics from the scratch is due as well as the search for an optimized speaker position and the test and adjustment of different voicing and EQ curves.

I was close to order the DG-58 when I've got an interesting offer for a C-3800 pre amp. To take it was the better decision for me for the moment.