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  #281  
Old 11-19-2019, 10:30 PM
1KW 1KW is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
The 501 is an older Mac amp. It will not deliver the current into low impedance loads the new Macs will. Also, the amp must be operating properly. The 501 will drive most speakers extremely well. I would expect it to do an excellent job in the Wilson line through the Alexia but I would not want it for my Alexx. Impedance is too low.

Are there other amps that will do a better job? Of course. But that's not the point. It will do an excellent job providing it is operating properly. "Slow and lack of grip" are fairly meaningless terms and compared to what?

I have always been a speaker aficionado. I suspect a 501 would make a Wilson Sabrina absolutely sing.

Get a good Mac amp/pre, Mac digital front end, cables, power cords, IC's, and power conditioner. I suggest AQ. Then spend your money on the speaker. If at all possible, begin with a dedicated 20 amp line and hospital grade outlet. But don't ask the 501 to do too much. It is not a super amp.

I have said it many times before but I believe in sound signatures. Good companies have a house sound. Find companies whose sound you like. The high end is all about personal taste. It's what makes it fun. Stay within your sound signatures and and you will be happier because you will be much less prone to be carried away by the "latest and greatest".
Are you talking about speakers less than 4 ohms when you say low impedance loads ? Works fine with 4 ohm speakers. My 501's sound fantastic driving my SF Strads. , plenty of bass even at low volumes. Fast , slow I can only say the midrange is sweet, never felt the high's were rolled off . Fantastic amp. that packs a lot of power in a relatively small package that will fit in almost any cabinet or rack uniike the new 600 watt mono amps.
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  #282  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:21 PM
Charles Charles is online now
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Originally Posted by 1KW View Post
Are you talking about speakers less than 4 ohms when you say low impedance loads ? Works fine with 4 ohm speakers. My 501's sound fantastic driving my SF Strads. , plenty of bass even at low volumes. Fast , slow I can only say the midrange is sweet, never felt the high's were rolled off . Fantastic amp. that packs a lot of power in a relatively small package that will fit in almost any cabinet or rack uniike the new 600 watt mono amps.
You obviously have one that is working properly. When I say "low impedance loads" I mean speakers with impedance consistently at 2 ohm or below. A sensitivity of say 86 and a 1.5 impedance I would not recommend for a 501. I personally would never use the 2 ohm tap that Mac supplies. But that's just my opinion. Others may have good results with this tap.

You have a wonderful vintage amp. Enjoy!
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  #283  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:47 PM
1KW 1KW is offline
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Wow I never heard speakers with 1.5-2 ohm impedance, that obviously calls for some special amplifier
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  #284  
Old 11-21-2019, 04:24 PM
keef keef is offline
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Originally Posted by Charles View Post
You obviously have one that is working properly. When I say "low impedance loads" I mean speakers with impedance consistently at 2 ohm or below. A sensitivity of say 86 and a 1.5 impedance I would not recommend for a 501. I personally would never use the 2 ohm tap that Mac supplies. But that's just my opinion. Others may have good results with this tap.

You have a wonderful vintage amp. Enjoy!
Charles, my 501's drive 2 sets of Thiel speakers, 3.6 and CS 6 to virtually any volume level in a large room with zero stress. Thiels are notoriously tough to drive and play close to 2 ohms at most frequencies.

I can't imagine many more difficult loads, maybe Apogees. I would be curious to hear 1.2KW or 1.25KW on my speakers for fun.
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Main System
Basis 2200 Signature/Vector 4/Transfiguration Proteus
Ortofon Cadenza Black
Allnic H3000/CJ ET5/Mcintosh 501's
Thiel CS3.6
Thiel CS6
MIT EVO 2 IC
Straightwire Maestro II SC
Shunyata Denali SV2
Shunyata Sigma XC
Wywires Juice PC’s
Kubala Sosna PC’s
Dedicated 20 amp lines
Porter Ports
Arcici Ref Suspense Stand
Rives acoustically designed room

Shore House
Basis 1400 Signature/Hadcock 228/Ortofon Jubilee
ARC PH 5/Meridian 200/Meridian 263 DAC
CJ Premier 14/Classe CA200/Thiel 3.6
Wywires Silver IC/Stereolab Diablo SC/MIT Z cord II
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  #285  
Old 11-21-2019, 05:01 PM
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Yamaki Yamaki is online now
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My Aerial Acoustic 8s dip pretty low as well and I am running them on the 4 ohm tap with no issues.

My experience with 2 ohm and below rated speakers has all been with subwoofers with their own plate amps installed.
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  #286  
Old 11-22-2019, 06:18 AM
Charles Charles is online now
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Originally Posted by 1KW View Post
Wow I never heard speakers with 1.5-2 ohm impedance, that obviously calls for some special amplifier
My Alexx has a 1.5 ohm minimum impedance and runs around 2 ohms in the bass. However, it has a sensitivity of 91. It rarely requires much over 12 watts in my room. However, I would not recommend a 501 for an Alexx. I would recommend it for anything in the Wilson line through the Alexia 2. That's just my recommendation. Ultimately it depends on the sound. I can tell you that Macs and Wilsons are extremely compatible for some reason. Don't know why. This gives Mac owners the opportunity to own some of the finest speakers on the planet. Many Wilson owners employ amps costing 10 times Mac amps, yet Mac amps produce for my ears the sound I want to hear from a speaker.

Thiel CS5's and CS5i's had a sensitivity of about 86 db and a constant impedance of 2 ohms. They were extremely difficult to drive. I owned a pair for about 5 years. I used a Krell FPB 700 and wished I had the mono 750's. Those were beautiful amps and still among the best on the planet. But they were pure class A 100% all the time and would heat a large room. 6000 watt power supply and more output transistors than you can count. The Krell Master Reference mono amp is to this day the best amp on the planet, Relentless not withstanding, IMO.

I don't know how my 1.25's would do on a CS5. The bass reflex Thiel's were a much easier drive than the acoustic suspension CS5. I previously used a 600 watt/ch Mac on the CS5 but it didn't do the job the 700 did and I did use the 2 ohm tap. You know how I love Mac and the Mac house sound. Among the best amps on the planet for 99% of speakers but there are rare speakers that nothing but the amps Dan D'Agostino makes can drive, IMO. Whether it be his current amps or the older Krells. His amps have a great sound with tremendous presence and detail with zero harshness or grain. They can drive anything. No taps or transformers. You have to appreciate greatness even if you don't use it.

Last edited by Charles; 11-22-2019 at 06:55 AM.
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  #287  
Old 11-22-2019, 12:30 PM
keef keef is offline
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Hi Charles,

Having lived with CS5i's you no doubt have great experience with a great speaker. And you have a great speaker now! I contemplated many times about buying that speaker, the 5i, but knew I would have to invest in new amplification as well and big. Back then I was using a 200 watt Classe with a 3.6 prior to getting the 501's.

For reference, I just looked at my sales receipt and cannot believe I have had the 501's since 2004.....WOW! Well I would say I really like the Mac sound but that is obvious. Not sure where I would go next to step it up - lots of options for lots of money. I find that over time you get so accustomed to a sonic flavor it is hard to switch. I have certainly found that with Thiel.

What do you like most about your 1.25's?
__________________
Main System
Basis 2200 Signature/Vector 4/Transfiguration Proteus
Ortofon Cadenza Black
Allnic H3000/CJ ET5/Mcintosh 501's
Thiel CS3.6
Thiel CS6
MIT EVO 2 IC
Straightwire Maestro II SC
Shunyata Denali SV2
Shunyata Sigma XC
Wywires Juice PC’s
Kubala Sosna PC’s
Dedicated 20 amp lines
Porter Ports
Arcici Ref Suspense Stand
Rives acoustically designed room

Shore House
Basis 1400 Signature/Hadcock 228/Ortofon Jubilee
ARC PH 5/Meridian 200/Meridian 263 DAC
CJ Premier 14/Classe CA200/Thiel 3.6
Wywires Silver IC/Stereolab Diablo SC/MIT Z cord II
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  #288  
Old 11-22-2019, 02:14 PM
Charles Charles is online now
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Originally Posted by keef View Post
Hi Charles,

Having lived with CS5i's you no doubt have great experience with a great speaker. And you have a great speaker now! I contemplated many times about buying that speaker, the 5i, but knew I would have to invest in new amplification as well and big. Back then I was using a 200 watt Classe with a 3.6 prior to getting the 501's.

For reference, I just looked at my sales receipt and cannot believe I have had the 501's since 2004.....WOW! Well I would say I really like the Mac sound but that is obvious. Not sure where I would go next to step it up - lots of options for lots of money. I find that over time you get so accustomed to a sonic flavor it is hard to switch. I have certainly found that with Thiel.

What do you like most about your 1.25's?
I think it quite telling that Jim Thiel came out with the 3.6 almost immediately after the 5. I heard the 3.6 extensively. It was a great speaker and frankly better than a 5. The 5 had some weaknesses: Dynamically limited in the bass although very good if the woofers didn't bottom out. A strong wolf tone at about 400 Hz. And it required a Krell FPB. It would sing with a Krell FPB. I could not recommend a 5 or a 5i unless one is prepared to spend the money on an amp that loves low impedance loads and low speaker sensitivities. Also short runs of expensive speaker cable suited especially for low impedance loads. However meet those requirements and the 5 or 5i is a great speaker. It was meant as a true reference for $11,000.00. I could never hear the wolf tone except on a test CD but put on a sine wave sweep and you could hear it and feel it up next to the speaker. The 5 had no roll off or high pass filter. If you put on a strong 20 Hz note it would attempt to produce it and would until the woofers bottomed out. The bass reflex Thiels did everything the 5 did except better, IMO and Jim Thiel never produced another acoustic suspension speaker. Thiels are wonderful speakers, as good as anything out there today. I heard the 6's and 7's and they are great speakers. I'm not sure what happened to Thiel. I think they began to go wrong when they got away from their bread and butter and began to do sub woofers and a midrange/tweeter coaxial driver that he could never perfect. I think it telling that this type of driver more difficult to perfect than could have been appreciated at that time.

When I bought my 1.2KW I was disappointed it did not have the new output transistor the 601 had but I wanted the higher power. Without taking anything away from the older Mac amps the 1.25 has a wonderful liquidity of sound, especially with Wilsons. Zero grain or harshness but not the presence you get with the Dag and maybe not quite the resolution. What you get with a Dag or the Krell FPB is the live performance sense that you are there, the performers are literally in the room. The Mac sound is more relaxed and laid back. For my taste I can live with both. You know, not every thing you listen to is a live performance. On my Mac when I am actually listening to a live performance, it sounds like one. The 1.25 is chameleon-like and makes my Alexx sing.

Last edited by Charles; 11-22-2019 at 02:58 PM.
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  #289  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:18 PM
keef keef is offline
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Great insight on Thiel speakers. I think the problems with Thiel began when Jim got sick and later passed. I know he was finishing the 3.7 at the time, not sure about plans after that. There apparently and unfortunately was no succession plan.

My wife wanted to buy those for me for my 50th (11 years ago!) but after hours of auditioning with 3 different systems I just could not pull the trigger. I was a long time 3.6 owner. I was interested in a larger more dynamic speaker and chose the CS6 although I still have my 3.6 like an old flame!

Regarding my 501's, sometimes I want the additional resolution/transparency that several SS would offer but most of the time I get plenty out of my system. I am a classic rocker so some of my vinyl is not audiophile quality and the Mac's fit perfectly with there "somewhat" forgiving nature. Lots of options for great SS amps out there but lately I am as interested in brands that have longevity as I am sota. I have some key components that are no longer in business, Transfiguration, Thiel. Also 15 years is a long time to stick with one amp, I am getting itchy. That's where 1.25 might be the scratch one day.
__________________
Main System
Basis 2200 Signature/Vector 4/Transfiguration Proteus
Ortofon Cadenza Black
Allnic H3000/CJ ET5/Mcintosh 501's
Thiel CS3.6
Thiel CS6
MIT EVO 2 IC
Straightwire Maestro II SC
Shunyata Denali SV2
Shunyata Sigma XC
Wywires Juice PC’s
Kubala Sosna PC’s
Dedicated 20 amp lines
Porter Ports
Arcici Ref Suspense Stand
Rives acoustically designed room

Shore House
Basis 1400 Signature/Hadcock 228/Ortofon Jubilee
ARC PH 5/Meridian 200/Meridian 263 DAC
CJ Premier 14/Classe CA200/Thiel 3.6
Wywires Silver IC/Stereolab Diablo SC/MIT Z cord II
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  #290  
Old 11-23-2019, 02:53 PM
macman007 macman007 is offline
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I purchased my 501's in 2006. After listening to the MC 252, 352 and 452 amps, I decided I wanted to go mono with a little more power. When I was ramping up to purchasing these, myself and others were having conversations online regarding the design and power aspects, as well as real world capability.
Although I can't find the exact post (from 14 years ago) it was discussed between a number of us and Ron Cornelius at McIntosh, that the 501 fed a clean 120 volts on a 20 amp line is actually capable of over 700wpc. Redlighting Power Guard at 50% he claimed closer to 800 wpc during laboratory tests.

I have no way to test those numbers, my dummy loads are only rated to 500wpc, however there was no reason for Ron to lie to us, let alone on an open forum. My experiences with the 501's are that they can run any capable fairly efficient speaker to insane levels in a 16 by 20 foot room with 10 foot ceilings. Levels that are not painful because distortion levels are low, but will leave your hearing with a ring for several days after,..levels as loud as any rock concert I've ever attended.

I know in the real world people own a variety of speakers with different specs and can be difficult to drive. That said, I don't find the sound/performance abilities of the 501's dated or limited. Personally, I don't see any need to upgrade ever, but then I'm that guy who still owns and uses multiple 2105's, 2205's 2255's and 2125's. With some new caps and other minimal age related work, those amps sound as good as new today, perhaps better than most of what is on the market today, to me anyway. Unless I hit the Lotto or whatever ( I don't ever play, so fat chance) bigger more powerful Mc amps aren't in my future.

I'd much rather keep my preamps and digital audio (CD, DVD, SACD, DVD/A, Blu Ray, High Resolution, Streaming) units up to date with the latest performance levels you can hear, buy a lot more vinyl, and keep upgrading my turntable, (I just bought VPI's Prime Signature this year), as opposed to chasing more watts. I'm similarly contented with my speakers,.. Mc's own XRT 22's which I've owned even longer, over 20 years, which continue to sound perfect with new capacitors I recently installed into their aging crossover networks.

How many can honestly say they are that content with the sound and quality of their gear after 14 years or more? I happy to say I am one of those people, and proud owner of several 501's.

What these amps do need are those glorious and gorgeous rack handle upgrades that Master Liu offers for sale, which makes the "little" 501's look every bit as formidable as the bigger dogs in Mc's amp stable..

If you are ever in the Hanover Pa. area, feel free to stop in for a listen...
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