Balanced vs unbalanced connection with Accuphase

[Mattia]

Hi all,
I would like to have your opinion regarding balanced vs unbalanced connection with Accuphase gear.

As far as I understand, not all Accuphase gear are really balanced designs, and as far as I understand from people more knowledgeable than me, for short cable runs in this situation the balanced connection should not bring any advantage over the unbalanced one. Some even argue that the unbalanced connection should be more transparent because it has less electronics in the signal path, in a non balanced design gear.

I tried my Accuphase XLR and RCA cables (the "brown" series, all 1 meter long) with all my electronics (se my signature) and honestly I could not ear noticeable differences.
So maybe it is because my gear is not fully balanced designs, but witch Accuphase gear is nowadays (c-3800/3850?).
In the past there was the P-102 that was a really balanced amp, even with its "base" price. Now?


(p.s. one aspect that I prefer with balanced interconnect is the Cannon plug: absolutely better, friendlier and more robust in my opinion.)

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by Mattia

Hi all,
I would like to have your opinion regarding balanced vs unbalanced connection with Accuphase gear.

As far as I understand, not all Accuphase gear are really balanced designs, and as far as I understand from people more knowledgeable than me, for short cable runs in this situation the balanced connection should not bring any advantage over the unbalanced one. Some even argue that the unbalanced connection should be more transparent because it has less electronics in the signal path, in a non balanced design gear.

I tried my Accuphase XLR and RCA cables (the "brown" series, all 1 meter long) with all my electronics (se my signature) and honestly I could not ear noticeable differences.
So maybe it is because my gear is not fully balanced designs, but witch Accuphase gear is nowadays (c-3800/3850?).
In the past there was the P-102 that was a really balanced amp, even with its "base" price. Now?


(p.s. one aspect that I prefer with balanced interconnect is the Cannon plug: absolutely better, friendlier and more robust in my opinion.)

Personally, I had always used balanced interconnects with my Accuphase gear (with the 1990 system as well as with the current one). I felt there was a slight sonic advantage for balanced.

Balanced inputs and outputs need to be properly designed. In the first generation of balanced outputs (e.g. C-280L, DC-81L) Accuphase simply used an additional phase inverting stage.
This was not an ideal solution and therefore quickly abandoned from the next generation on (e.g. C-280V).

On some gear (e.g. DC-901) Accuphase use completely independent circuitry for balanced and unbalanced outputs.

The only fully balanced pres are C-3800 and C-3850.
AFAIK there were only very few fully balanced stereo amps: P-102 and P-800. The rest of the stereo amps mostly have a balanced input and driver stage, but the output stage is not balanced.
Monoblocks are usually fully balanced.

The brown Accuphase cables are not bad and relatively reasonably priced. But there are better (albeit more expensive) cables out there.
I recently replaced a 0.5m AQ WEL Signature older plugs XLR version with a 1m AQ WEL Signature current plugs XLR version. After some time I finally decided to go for a new DG-58 measurement.
I definitely had not expected that much more transparency and clarity just because of improved XLR plugs (the design of the cable itself had not changed)!

Martin

[greekgod]

There is an Accuphase product(can't remember which one) that Accuphase themselves recommends using an unbalanced cable with. If memory serves me correctly, they even include the unbalanced cabled with the product. Anyone know what I am thinking of?

[Masterlu]

Originally Posted by greekgod

There is an Accuphase product(can't remember which one) that Accuphase themselves recommends using an unbalanced cable with. If memory serves me correctly, they even include the unbalanced cabled with the product. Anyone know what I am thinking of?

Most new Accuphase gear in the USA includes unbalanced cables.

[Harris4crna]

The Accuphase gear I bought here in Japan also include unbalanced cables. Personally I use balanced cables with the 3850, d-37, a-70. Have not compared balanced to unbalance.

[Mattia]

Martin,
thank you for your impressions and explanation regarding the ways that Accuphase uses/used to implement the balanced out since the '80.

Regarding the plug, I intended that I prefer the XLR ones compared to RCA: more durable, elegant and robust. In my pre I already see some light scratches on the RCAs, even if I don't have plugged/unplugged too many times.
Exceptions are the rhodium plated RCA on the DC-81L and DP-80L: those are really perfect even after many years, but I read that the rhodium cost skyrocketed from the early '90, so Accuphase sadly never used that material after that period.

Greekgod
I think that Accuphase only includes unbalanced cables everywhere in the world. The difference is that in "top" level gear they are the brown ones (I had those with DG-58) while in mid to low level gear the are the blue ones (I had those with C-2420). With the A-46 there was no signal cable included.

As for power cables, if that matters, here in Switzerland I had included some good cables but really subpar compared to the top Japanese units (and perhaps US ones?), with their reassuring fat and good looking cable with oversize plug (the "mid to low" power cable is normal instead), in line with the price of the gear. Sadly my preferred shop keeper said that is normal for Swiss market units. Maybe the German ones (the wall plug here is different from Germany, so we have a different cable) are similar to the Japanese ones regarding "size and look", I don't know.

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by Mattia

I think that Accuphase only includes unbalanced cables everywhere in the world. The difference is that in "top" level gear they are the brown ones (I had those with DG-58) while in mid to low level gear the are the blue ones (I had those with C-2420).

Absolutely correct. Always only unbalanced cables included.

Originally Posted by Mattia

As for power cables, if that matters, here in Switzerland I had included some good cables but really subpar compared to the top Japanese units (and perhaps US ones?), with their reassuring fat and good looking cable with oversize plug (the "mid to low" power cable is normal instead), in line with the price of the gear. Sadly my preferred shop keeper said that is normal for Swiss market units. Maybe the German ones (the wall plug here is different from Germany, so we have a different cable) are similar to the Japanese ones regarding "size and look", I don't know.

The Swiss distributor includes 3x0,75mm2 power cables. Currently, I use 3x1mm2 (same size as in Germany) standard industry power cables with Swiss plugs.
Because Japan has less than half the voltage of Europe, thicker cables must be used to cope with the resulting higher currents.

If you'd use a German power strip, you could use the included German 3x1mm2 cables with Schuko plugs.

Martin

[Mattia]

Martin

The Swiss distributor includes 3x0,75mm2 power cables. Currently, I use 3x1mm2 (same size as in Germany) standard industry power cables with Swiss plugs.
Because Japan has less than half the voltage of Europe, thicker cables must be used to cope with the resulting higher currents.

You are absolutely right: thicker than 1mm2 cables are overkill for us European customers, even for power hungry amplifiers (anyway to be absolutely sure, for my audio room I cabled a dedicated 2.5mm2 line with its own valve).
My only regret is mainly a "look and feel" one. For example the Japanese package of the DG-58 sports a surely costly and very well built big cable, absolutely exaggerated for the 24W required by the unit. But boy feels nice and in line with the unit.

In the Swiss DG-58 (and C-2420 and also the power amp A-46) I found a cable that is same as a normal cable, like the one you find in a CHF 200.- PC monitor package... perfectly fine, just a bit underwhelming if one considers the price of the units. In the end, we pay way more and even get a bit less. That's my only problem.