Clearaudio vs VPI

[advanced101]

Anyone have any thoughts on how a Clearaudio Ovation with Universal arm would compare against a VPI Avenger base model?

[greekgod]

I can't speak about how those models compare specifically but my dealer and I recently had a conversation about some of the differences between the two brands. He said that he prefers Clearaudio overall. The arms on VPI tend to wobble slightly as they drop while the Clearaudio arms drop precisely down in a straight line. They both have great bass but the Clearaudio has a more refined sound. I'm trying to remember everything he said but my mind is drawing a blank...lol.

I do think that in the US everyone likes VPI because it is made in the USA but in Germany everyone likes Clearaudio because it is made in Germany. On this forum, everyone is probably going to say VPI.

I have heard both the Clearaudio Concept and VPI Classic 3 in the same system and was surprised when I preferred the much cheaper Clearaudio. It had a much more lively sound that made me want to get up and dance while the VPI was boring in comparison. I have also heard heard the VPI Prime and Avenger in different systems and they were VERY impressive but they definitely have a laid back kind of sound at least to my ears.

I think a more fair comparison to the Avenger would be the Innovation which I have not heard.

I hope this helps a little. I think it really boils down to preference.

[greekgod]

I guess I shouldn't say that VPI is boring in comparison but rather it has the type of sound you listen to while laying back in a lazy boy drinking a glass of wine. The Clearaudio is more of a turntable that has me wanting to crank up the stereo so I can party. If I were to throw Rega into the mix, I would say those turntables remind me of being in a jazz club with their warm musical sound.

[advanced101]

Thanks for your opinions. It isn't the first time that I am hearing some of them. The reason I am comparing the Avenger against the Ovation/ Universal is that they are in the same price range.

[The Lost Bears]

I have a Clearaudio Innovation Wood Turntable with a Universal arm and not the Ovation. But I believe the Ovation has both the Ceramic Magnetic Bearing and Optical Speed Control just like mine. These 2 features would make the Ovation turntable hard to beat.

The platter floats on the Ceramic Magnetic Bearing. This isolates the platter from vibration while creating next to no friction. Take the belt off and give the platter a spin, it will keep spinning for a very long time.

Then there is the Optical Speed Control. It keeps the platter spinning at a precise speed with no variation. I forget exactly how many times a second it checks and adjusts the speed.

I have heard the Ovation many times (not in my system) and was impressed. I have not heard the VPI Avenger so I can not comment on it.

[2dparrish]

I had the Clearaudio Performance for a while, and, while I liked it, returned it to order the Innovation. While waiting for that order (waited a LONG time, everything takes long coming from Germany), VPI had a Christmas special on the Classic Signature/SDS. I decided to cancel the Innovation and went with VPI, for considerably less money, which enabled me to spend more on phone preamp and cartridge. Combined with the Avid Pulsare and Soundsmith Sussuro, the sound is amazing and better than any digital save VERY high-rez (24/196--and I still prefer analog). The wobble of the 3d arm is a non-issue, it is supposed to do that (it's a unipivot) a little but doesn't effect the sound to my ears. Granted I haven't heard the Ovation, and I have no doubt it is excellent, but the conclusion I came to is that Clearaudio charges alot for what you get compared to VPI. You have to pay quite a bit extra to get their more advanced tonearm, for instance. Much of that has to do with the exchange rate--VPI is much more expensive/less of a value overseas than here. But the 3d arm is just terrific sounding--uncolored to my ears, and at least with my preamp/cartridge combination (and I also have the periphery ring and clamp), there is nothing lacking--great uncolored resolution, from top to bottom. So I can give a hardy recommendation for VPI, AND i would say it is important to not short-change the preamp/cartridge if you want the most from whatever 'table you choose. Remember, the Classc Sig is a Stereophile A rated 'table, I would suspect the Avenger can only be better. I think it would more fairly be compared with the Innovation rather than the Ovation. But I don't think you can go wrong either way, VPI just represents a better value to those of us on this side of the pond.

[greekgod]

Originally Posted by 2dparrish

I had the Clearaudio Performance for a while, and, while I liked it, returned it to order the Innovation. While waiting for that order (waited a LONG time, everything takes long coming from Germany), VPI had a Christmas special on the Classic Signature/SDS. I decided to cancel the Innovation and went with VPI, for considerably less money, which enabled me to spend more on phone preamp and cartridge. Combined with the Avid Pulsare and Soundsmith Sussuro, the sound is amazing and better than any digital save VERY high-rez (24/196--and I still prefer analog). The wobble of the 3d arm is a non-issue, it is supposed to do that (it's a unipivot) a little but doesn't effect the sound to my ears. Granted I haven't heard the Ovation, and I have no doubt it is excellent, but the conclusion I came to is that Clearaudio charges alot for what you get compared to VPI. You have to pay quite a bit extra to get their more advanced tonearm, for instance. Much of that has to do with the exchange rate--VPI is much more expensive/less of a value overseas than here. But the 3d arm is just terrific sounding--uncolored to my ears, and at least with my preamp/cartridge combination (and I also have the periphery ring and clamp), there is nothing lacking--great uncolored resolution, from top to bottom. So I can give a hardy recommendation for VPI, AND i would say it is important to not short-change the preamp/cartridge if you want the most from whatever 'table you choose. Remember, the Classc Sig is a Stereophile A rated 'table, I would suspect the Avenger can only be better. I think it would more fairly be compared with the Innovation rather than the Ovation. But I don't think you can go wrong either way, VPI just represents a better value to those of us on this side of the pond.

I mean no disrespect but even my very humble Denon turntable sounds better than even the best high-rez files. Your VPI should blow even the best high rez files right out of the water. If it doesn't then that is disappointing.

I should clarify that my dealer stated the wobble of the VPI arm doesn't affect the sound but it requires extra patience if you are trying to line up a specific track on a record while on the Clearaudio it is super easy. A minor quibble really.

Personally, I really like the sound on the new 3D arms as well. They are a huge improvement over the older VPI arms, IMO.

I would take recommendations from Stereophile with a grain of salt. They have a reputation for praising products that are advertised in their magazine. I prefer Tone Audio as they don't seem to have any bias.

VPI certainly does offer a lot of value especially for those living in the US. I live in Canada and it is pricey to import VPI at the moment. On the other hand, importing European made products has become much more affordable for Canadians. I am not sure where the original poster lives as he does not state his location...

[jbaudio68]

Originally Posted by greekgod

I mean no disrespect but even my very humble Denon turntable sounds better than even the best high-rez files. Your VPI should blow even the best high rez files right out of the water. If it doesn't then that is disappointing. I should clarify that my dealer stated the wobble of the VPI arm doesn't affect the sound but it requires extra patience if you are trying to line up a specific track on a record while on the Clearaudio it is super easy. A minor quibble really. Personally, I really like the sound on the new 3D arms as well. They are a huge improvement over the older VPI arms, IMO. I would take recommendations from Stereophile with a grain of salt. They have a reputation for praising products that are advertised in their magazine. I prefer Tone Audio as they don't seem to have any bias. VPI certainly does offer a lot of value especially for those living in the US. I live in Canada and it is pricey to import VPI at the moment. On the other hand, importing European made products has become much more affordable for Canadians. I am not sure where the original poster lives as he does not state his location...

Can you tell me how the 3D arms differ from the older arms? I have the 10.5 jmw arm and have been considering an upgrade.

[greekgod]

Originally Posted by jbaudio68

Can you tell me how the 3D arms differ from the older arms? I have the 10.5 jmw arm and have been considering an upgrade.

I will let you judge for yourself since everyone's ears are different. File A is the older metal arm and file B is the 3D arm.

VPI

[2dparrish]

Originally Posted by greekgod

I mean no disrespect but even my very humble Denon turntable sounds better than even the best high-rez files. Your VPI should blow even the best high rez files right out of the water. If it doesn't then that is disappointing. I should clarify that my dealer stated the wobble of the VPI arm doesn't affect the sound but it requires extra patience if you are trying to line up a specific track on a record while on the Clearaudio it is super easy. A minor quibble really. Personally, I really like the sound on the new 3D arms as well. They are a huge improvement over the older VPI arms, IMO. I would take recommendations from Stereophile with a grain of salt. They have a reputation for praising products that are advertised in their magazine. I prefer Tone Audio as they don't seem to have any bias. VPI certainly does offer a lot of value especially for those living in the US. I live in Canada and it is pricey to import VPI at the moment. On the other hand, importing European made products has become much more affordable for Canadians. I am not sure where the original poster lives as he does not state his location...

No disrespect taken. Quality of sound is dependent on a number of things--miking used, mixing, pressing (in the case of vinyl). In terms of sounding live to my ears, 24/196 and dsd when done properly come the closest I've heard to the best vinyl. There are definitely some vinyl recordings I have that can't match the dynamics, quietness, spaciousness, nor detail of really good 24/196 and dsd recordings (I'm not speaking of the same recording done digitally and on vinyl, but in general terms). Having said that, when vinyl is recorded from analog, mixed properly, and pressed well, it is phenomenal and GENERALLY much better than anything digital. Given the chioce, I would always choose excellent vinyl. I have some APO 45 pressings that are mesmerizing, and the APO Living Stereo reissues are stunning. But well done digital can come very close to approximating the real sense of acoustic space and tone quality of real instruments (I listen primarily to classical and jazz). When I initially received the Performance DC (first turntable I'd had in 20 years), I was amazed at how much music I'd been missing and how much the music sounded "right" compared to most digital (in fact ALL digital, even besting some SACDs I have); the VPI Classic Signature w/the preamp/cartridge I chose is to my ears a BIG step up from the already excellent Clearaudio I had.

That was my main point--the VPI sounded significantly better and was worth the extra money to me. We certainly all have different ears, but I don't hear the VPI as "dull" at all. In fact my first reaction was that it had more "pace" than the Performance DC. But I don't know your tastes nor what arm/cartridge you heard in the Classic 3. The periphery ring really makes a difference--it takes out some of the "ring" created by the metal platter. Again to my ears, the Performance had a less lively sound (due in my opinion to the delrin platter, but that was with a different cartridge/preamp (though in the same family--Soundsmith Zephyr and an Avid preamp lower down in their line). While I can't compare VPI arms, I can tell you (OP) that compared with the Clarify arm that came on the DC, the 3D VPI arm just sounds more natural. With the cartridge I have, it tracks beautifully, unlike the Clarify, which had a tendency to skip (one of the reasons I returned it). If going with Clearaudio I would definitely go with one of their higher end arms (I was going to go for the Universal when I originally placed my order for the Innovation). As I see it, each company has different design philosophies (AC vs. DC motor, unipivot/epoxy vs. gimbaled/carbon arm, etc.). In my opinion, the one area that Clearaudio clearly (pun intended) does better is in looks, but again that's personal preference. Again, I think you will most likely be happy with whichever route you decide to go.