Wilson versus Vivid Audio and Magico

[SCAudiophile]

Originally Posted by Charles

The problem I have with your reply is I don't hear you giving a concise respectful thoughtful rebuttal. Rather a one liner and implication by some comments in this thread that Wilson is disreputable as far as materials are concerned, which I can testify to that they are not (disreputable). With all my purchases they have been the absolute best and very forthcoming. Not standoffish, not smug but humble if anything. My respectful analysis of Magico is that they are severely limited by their cabinet design and the fact that it is a sealed system.

My XVX will be installed tomorrow. This is my third Wilson: Maxx3, Alexx, and now XVX. Let's hope the installation goes well.

With all due respect Charles, stating any speaker design is flawed or challenged because it is a single box and/or a sealed design is a flawed argument. There are plenty of examples of great and very good speakers out there that have both as attributes and yet are temporally, phase and frequency well behaved and very musical.

Wilson is not the only manufacturer that can design a great speaker.

On a more positive note, hearty congratulations on your XVX install this week! You are very fortunate to get such a world class speaker!!!

[JoeN]

Charles,

Thanks for your post.

Originally Posted by Charles

However, Magico's are inherently limited by the fact that the cabinet is one piece. A one piece cabinet has a furniture resonance, no matter how well built. Furniture resonance is very significant. What is this resonance in the M6 or Mk II? Because Alexx is modular there is no furniture resonance. Read the Stereophile review. Manufacturers like McIntosh, Genesis, Infinity, and SF all recognize this fact and design their systems so that the crossover frequencies eliminate this issue.

As to cabinet resonance, Magico addresses this on their website. From what I’m hearing in my Magicos, they have done an excellent job with balancing the stiffness, mass, and dampness of their cabinets: https://www.magicoaudio.com/enclosures

Yes, they do it differently than Wilson does. This does not make Wilson better or Magico better, it just makes them both different. And there are numerous other excellent speaker manufactures that do it differently than Magico or Wilson. IMO some of them are every bit as good as Wilson or Magico. Just because other speaker manufacturers don’t do it Wilson’s way doesn’t make them bad or any less of a speaker. Rather it makes them different!

Originally Posted by Charles

Also, since the drivers are all in one cabinet there can be no time alignment. The sound of the individual drivers will reach the ears at different times. Does time alignment make a difference? I think this is a proven fact. I asked a simple question: What are the rules for positioning a Magico? What is the rule for how much toe-in? What is the rule for optimum distance from the speaker? For ear height? Does any of this matter? I wasn't provided an answer because the answer is that it is what sounds best to you.

With Wilson there is an answer. Most rooms have a sweet spot. I know where mine is. I'm going to place my XVX in about the same position as my Alexx and go through the comprehensive Wilson adjustment procedure: point the tweeters at your ears, not between your eyes or at your shoulders but exactly at your ears. Then adjust all modules for distance between ears and tweeters and ear height. Then listen. Then adjust. Then listen, until the sound is totally dialed in and you have the Wilson sound. I like the Wilson sound a lot and it is reproducible because Wilson has a method, a set of rules. Magico doesn't. If Magico does, state them.

Magico Speaker manuals are online. For instance, the Magico M6 manual is here: https://magico.net/support/M6/M6_Owner_Manual.pdf It goes thru unpacking, speaker placement and positioning, etc. It even includes pictures. If you’re interested in another model please put it into a Google and download said manual. For instance, I believe this is the manual for the Q7: https://magico.net/support/Q7/Q7_Owner_Manual.pdf

This said, my Magico dealer installed my speakers – actually my whole system. He brought some tools, including I think two different lasers to dial-in the sound to my listening position. The end product is absolutely amazing! However, that not all. He’s coming back to my home again to check the system as things may change slightly after a burn in period. Amazing customer service!!!

So, Magico does have an answer – read the manual(s). However, you don’t appear to know that Magico has any manuals online? So, this makes me question if you’ve ever listened to a Q7 MK II or M6 in your personal room? Any Magico dealer should be able to tell you how to set up a Magico speaker. Have you ever been to a Magico dealer? Have you ever asked a Magico dealer how to set up a Magico? Have you ever tried any Magico speaker at your home?

Originally Posted by Charles

There is nothing special about carbon fiber and aluminum. Both have been around for a long time. I believe Wilson and what they say about their materials. They are not fake as some have implied. I find it interesting that the XVX is even using aluminum in the gantry.

I agree with you that, “There is nothing special about carbon fiber and aluminum. Both have been around for a long time.” However, it’s “how” they are being utilized by Magico that makes all difference. As Mercedes can use similar materials as Honda and make a high-end automobile that excels at every level, so Magico uses such materials such as carbon fiber, aluminum, to make excellent high-end speakers. Assuming you have the capacity to make the trip, have you ever been on a Magico tour? I can’t go, but sure wish I could.

I have NEVER stated the Alphabet Letters that Wilson Audio uses are fake, etc. However, I have asked what the Alphabet letters “in detail” mean. But I have yet to be given an answer? Why did I ask this? Respectfully, Charles you stated, “As for actual cabinet materials no company in the world even comes close to Wilson these days: X material third generation, W material, S material, and the latest, V material” (Charles - post #81).

So, I suppose you would have an answer since you are purchasing 350K of Wilson speakers. I said congrats in another thread, but congrats again. Once complete, I’m sure you will have an amazing system. Since I don’t think someone would go into a 350K purchase blindly, could you tell us “in detail” (not just a paragraph or two, but a manual or the “dealer module” - metaphacts post #88) what the Wilson Alphabet is all about.

PS: I'm not so much interested in your opinion (we already know that) as I'm in the actual facts from Wilson itself. Can you provide or recite these?

Originally Posted by Charles

Lastly, the majority of manufacturers use ported systems for important reasons. Every sealed system has a resonance frequency. It is virtually impossible for the "box" to have a resonance frequency lower than 30Hz.

It is much more natural and easy to achieve really low bass with a ported system. The weakness of a ported speaker has always been the quality of the bass. Not so anymore. The bass with my Alexx was as quick and tight as anyone could want with superb transient response and pitch definition.

Actually, this is one reason I didn’t choose Wilson in my current set up. To my ears their bass is just to boomy.

Magico uses a sealed box design. Yes, they have no ports. And they do this for very important reasons. It is my understanding that a port allows the backwave of air pressure generated by a speaker’s drivers to leave the cabinet quicker. This in turn reduces the internal pressures, etc. Ports allow for a speaker to play louder with seemingly more bass. This type of design has many benefits. However, without expert voicing this can result in too much bass in one area and not enough in another. While it may not be everyone’s, this was part of my experience with Wilson. This doesn’t mean they are bad, but just that they aren’t for me.

From what I understand, Magico’s philosophy is that only by using a sealed alignment can one obtain truly accurate bass and prevent pressure-related distortion from compromising the speaker’s linearity. Here is a more complete explanation as it pertains to the Q3: https://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...3-loudspeakers

Originally Posted by Charles

I would ask Magico owners to state the rules for setting up and optimizing Magico's. I would ask them which they would choose, the Mk II or the M6 if money were no object.

Respectfully, as far as rules see the links above. If money were no object a lot still would depend upon the room size, the components, and my preferences. This said, I don’t need the most expensive speaker in the world to be entirely satisfied with the sound of my system. I think most people can be satisfied with speakers at far less than $100,000.00, and definitely much less than $350,000.00. I'm not saying your Wilson's are bad - I feel confident they will be absolutely amazing - its just that I think I can be perfectly content without spending near as much.

It’s not about how much you pay, it about being satisfied with how it plays.

Originally Posted by Charles

It's telling that Magico has no obvious Flagsip.

Every Magico speaker is a flagship. They just don’t put out one excellent super-duper speaker – it's absolute quality in every series.

Enjoy your new speakers Charles.

Please reply when you can. Any reply by me will be delayed as I have to go have some surgery.

[Charles]

JoeN, I'm sorry you are having surgery and I hope it is successful. Thank you for the congrats. I'll go backwards. What you are basically saying is that Magico doesn't have a Flagship. One of the real problems I have with some certainly not the majority of Magico owners is their smugness. Every speaker is a "Flagship". Really! Thankfully, no other speaker manufacturer claims this and I don't think Magico would either.

I agree with you on the it being "how it plays".

Boomy bass, Wilson? This doesn't even deserve an answer except to highlight your smugness. For the record, Wilsons don't have "boomy bass".

I'll stand by what I said concerning cabinet materials. You protest too much and you demand too much. Wilson has more advanced cabinet materials with their composites than an aluminium/carbon fiber cabinet. There is no modularity and a one piece cabinet creates a furniture resonance. The larger the cabinet the more difficult it is to mitigate.

As for installation, I'm sure you can see it is standard isosceles triangle routine used by many manufacturers. Toe it in a little, if that's too bright, toe it out a little and so on. Frankly it's not going to make any difference whether you use a laser because forming an absolutely exact isosceles triangle will make zero difference and again points out the inherent flaw in the Magico design compared to Wilson. What makes a huge difference is always being able to listen on axis tweeter to ear and time aligned for any distance and ear height. Notice the absence of the word "isosceles". It doesn't enter in to the Wilson equation. That's what sold me on Wilson. With Magico if the tweeter is pointed at the ear it may sound too bright, so toe it out. How much? That's the 64 dollar question. If it's too dull toe it in, but how much? Ans: till it sounds good but suppose it doesn't sound so "good" tomorrow? With Wilson you get a standard sound and to my ears the sound is good and I love on axis listening. Any manufacturer is going to tell you to begin with an isosceles but what you wind up with may be far different and you have no idea how the speaker is really supposed to sound.

Perhaps some don't understand that with Wilsons, you can choose where you want/need/must to sit in relation to your speakers and "dial in" the speaker and achieve the best Wilson sound for that sitting position. It may not be the absolute best Wilson sound but it will be the best the Wilson speaker can achieve given the limitations of the room. Folks like Michael Fremer of Stereophile must sit 8' from the speaker. His Alexx will deliver an on axis time aligned sound adjusted for distance and his ear height. That is amazing.

I will stand by my statement that Wilson has surpassed Magico in all areas with the possible exception of drivers.

[crwilli]

Geesh. I have never heard a Wilson or Vivid Speaker. I have heard a Magico but don’t remember the model. Sooooo, no dog in this hunt.

I respectfully suggest everyone step back and take the high road. There is nothing to win from this pi$$ing match. There is no answer to opinions and they get old after being stated the first time.

Charles, You have the least reason to engage on this. I am looking forward to continue reading about your new journey as you get setup and break in your new monsters.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by crwilli

Geesh. I have never heard a Wilson or Vivid Speaker. I have heard a Magico but don’t remember the model. Sooooo, no dog in this hunt.

I respectfully suggest everyone step back and take the high road. There is nothing to win from this pi$$ing match. There is no answer to opinions and they get old after being stated the first time.

Charles, You have the least reason to engage on this. I am looking forward to continue reading about your new journey as you get setup and break in your new monsters.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to the installation. I bought a Samsung Note 10 phone today with wide angle, panorama, and closeup features. I'm going as a project learn how to upload pics that are not rotated. I hope all goes well. I can't imagine how an XVX will sound but let's hope the stairs or floor doesn't collapse or the speaker goes crashing down the stairs.

[For The Love of Music]

Gotta say the pen is equal to the sword between these arguments.

The New Year is upon us, allow it for us to play and hear the music.

[Levitator]

Originally Posted by crwilli

Geesh. I have never heard a Wilson or Vivid Speaker. I have heard a Magico but don’t remember the model. Sooooo, no dog in this hunt.

I respectfully suggest everyone step back and take the high road. There is nothing to win from this pi$$ing match. There is no answer to opinions and they get old after being stated the first time.

Charles, You have the least reason to engage on this. I am looking forward to continue reading about your new journey as you get setup and break in your new monsters.

+1 - as owners of a particular brand it is easy for any of us to become somewhat ‘protective’ of that brand and allow our emotions to overtake us. As an outsider also with no dog in the fight, I would like someone to answer directly the ‘alphabet’ question as I would also be very interested to hear what this is all about.

Congrats again Charles on what will not doubt be a sensational system and all the best JoeN with the surgery...

Happy 2020 to all given we’ll get there first, relative to many of this forum!

[Masterlu]

Originally Posted by Levitator

I would like someone to answer directly the ‘alphabet’ question as I would also be very interested to hear what this is all about.

Congrats again Charles on what will not doubt be a sensational system and all the best JoeN with the surgery...

Happy 2020 to all given we’ll get there first, relative to many of this forum!

[Levitator]

Yep, that’s one way!

[kzhtoo]

Originally Posted by Charles

The problem I have with your reply is I don't hear you giving a concise respectful thoughtful rebuttal. Rather a one liner and implication by some comments in this thread that Wilson is disreputable as far as materials are concerned, which I can testify to that they are not (disreputable). With all my purchases they have been the absolute best and very forthcoming. Not standoffish, not smug but humble if anything. My respectful analysis of Magico is that they are severely limited by their cabinet design and the fact that it is a sealed system.

My XVX will be installed tomorrow. This is my third Wilson: Maxx3, Alexx, and now XVX. Let's hope the installation goes well.

Have you confused me with someone else? Do read back a couple of my “one liners” to see if I indeed claimed “Wilson is disreputable” in anyway shape or form.

Normally I try not to engage in X speaker manufacturer vs. Y speaker manufacturer debate as it never seems to be useful or helpful and no one is ever going to change anyone’s mind. And also because I feel very comfortable with my choice using my ears. But I did in this thread (maybe I shouldn’t have..given I have to get involved further with this reply) because the “smugness” displayed by you is out of ordinary.

I’m glad that you are able to afford $300k and you’re close to acquiring your dream of owning a “true reference level” speaker (as you claimed of XVX). I always find taking delivery of new speakers are most exciting time. But “the problem I have with you” is just because you spent $300k and have read some technical papers (intertwined with marketing messages), you feel you’ve figured out all there is regarding loudspeaker design and entitled to diss other speaker manufacturer for no apparent reason. The way you did is even more astonishing - somehow you brought in YG to the conversation and conveniently stated not only Wilson, but YG is quite easily better than Magico because they also use aluminum. And from what you wrote, I find no proof that you have had either YG or Magico in you room.

Ok, now below link is for your request for thoughtful rebuttal on Magico enclosure, drivers and phase/time alignment philosophy. Unlike you, I don’t claim to even remotely understand high end loudspeaker design, so I will just quote none other than Magico boss Alon Wolf. Hope you enjoy it, especially phase/time alignment part.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...for-alon-wolf/