Black Mamba CX for Power Amps?

[Masterlu]

Originally Posted by Antonmb

I’m sure Grant or Caelin can correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t take the video as a scientific study but rather a simple, practical demonstration of how their cables can improve current delivery over the typical stock power cord. To suggest that a better or larger gauge stock cord would perform better misses the point, since, with few exceptions, to my knowledge they simply don’t exist. Boulder supplies special cords with their larger amps, but other than that, in 45 years of buying audio gear I have yet to come across a 10 gauge oem cord. And I don’t think that’s because manufacturers don’t believe in better cords, just that 1) they’re not cable companies and 2) they recognize cable choice is an individual decision. After all, some manufacturers, like Woo Audio, don’t even provide cords.

The only manufacturer that I have seen supply a very high end power cable is Burmester. Even with that said, I still chose my own after market power cords.

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by GrantS

No. That is not true, not even close.

I don't want to belabor this as I don't have time for a lot of back and forth, but I'll clarify. The problem with stock power cords isn't just "gauge". Most of the connectors have very scant, poor quality metals and in many cases, you can literally bend the pins this way and that--similar in its poorly engineered quality to the outlet you saw later in the video.

Mac and other high-end gear may sound fine with a stock power cord and if someone's happy with those, all's good. I was here answering a question. I know from 18 years of experience that the vast, vast majority of good electronics will sound a good deal better with better-than-stock power cords and there are many reasons why, not just "gauge".

There are no 15A IEC stock-power cords of any gauge that are crimped or soldered; meaning the metal conductors barely touch the metal pins at either end of the power cord and they are held in place by the molded ends. This is fine for toasters and microwaves, but not so much for analog-output electronics that pull sharply off the top/bottom of the sine wave in micro-second pulses in the service of music and sound reproduction. The wire itself in these stock cords is poor quality and has a high-resistance compared to better quality copper. Again, these stock power cords were designed for function, not performance.

The AC signal will encounter resistance at every point where there is a poor or insufficient connection or path for peak-current. When replacing or improving points of added resistance with a better outlet, better than stock power cords, or having an electrician tighten the breaker at the panel that serves your audio gear, the differences are straightforward, easy to hear in almost ANY system. In some cases the differences are quite dramatic to staggering.

The videos aren't a side-show and Caelin does know whereof he speaks, coming from a family of master-electricians and studying electrical systems during his time in the NSA. In addition, we've measured and studied all kinds of power cords and developed an entire series of our own custom-designed parts using listening and measurement. There are measurable and easy-to-hear differences in a power cord's gauge, termination method, connector quality, wire quality, wire-geometry and shielding versus no-shielding, and filtering, obviously.

Regarding the outlet comparison--there is a very similar commercially available outlet to the high-quality one you saw in the video. Its model name is a 5362 Hubbel SPEC Grade. They are _amazing_ performance wise and cost around $30, maybe less. I recommend them to all who ask and they are worth every penny. Ours are custom-modified (by Hubbel) versions of that outlet and have been cryo-treated so they perform better but its not night-day in terms of differences. Our CopperConn (solid copper) outlets are indeed an enormous improvement from either of those models, but we don't sell them; instead they are used in our Triton and Denali models.

By the way, Hospital Grade outlets are terrible in terms of sound because they apply a heavy plate of Nickel (poor conductor of current) to protect the brass pins from solvents and the wet-air environments in hospitals. They measure as highly resistive to peak-current and compared to the $30 5362 SPEC model they are well, terrible in terms of sound.

I'm happy to answer honestly asked questions whenever I can find the time.

Regards,

Grant

Bang on! Thank you. Real, measurable functional responses *and* interactions explained by real science and engineering.

As a scientist and Design for Six Sigma Master Black Belt, I encounter similar thinking from my student engineers and scientists in biotech. They only think in ways they were taught in school, or the One Factor at a Time (OFAT) approach to obtaining performance or functionality. So many folks in science, engineering, photography, imaging, audio, whatever, think there is one or maybe two factors that independently drives the performance, quality attributes, functionality, what I term the "functional response" that is required or desired of a product.

This view is both simple-minded and inaccurate. Most "systems" are comprised of the interactions of a number of factors or parameters that result or drive the direction of the desired or undesired functional response (e.g. maximize, minimize, put "on-target"). It's usually NOT one factor, like primer concentration, or ionic strength, or even cable gauge, or conductor material, or dielectric, etc, etc. that produces the desired or required functional respons(es).

To put it the most simple way I can: You're a baker and you want to sell nicely baked cookies. You can place your cookie batter down on a baking sheet, put the oven on at 500 degrees and put the unbaked cookies in the oven for 5 seconds. What are you going to get? Not nicely baked cookies. You can put the cookies in the oven when its turned off for a week and what are you going to get? Yup...not nicely baked cookies.

What do you have to do? You have to figure out the ideal TIME AND TEMPERATURE to have the cookies in the oven so they'll bake nicely because there is an INTERACTION between TIME AND TEMPERATURE in the chemical reaction that results in nicely baked cookies that you CANNOT get around.

And these interactions are just the sort of point that Grant is making around designing and manufacturing Shunyata cables.

[SCAudiophile]

Grant/Caelin,...as usual, the level of candor, real quantifiable research and transparency in an industry (cable, power, grounding solution manufacturers) that is not known for these traits is very much appreciated. It's clear there is real science and real world experience behind all your products and the results speak for themselves.

I alternate between humor and frustration with cable naysayers on various forums and was one myself 15-16 years ago, balking at the difference an expensive and well-engineered cable or outlet or conditioner could make "because it was just electrical info flowing on wire..." Suffice it to say, I know today how wrong I was all those years...

To that camp, I would say the following;

1. take audio or video equipment out of the mix entirely and watch this video;

http://shunyata.com/2015/12/01/noise...al-procedures/

For your own LIFE & HEALTH and that of your family, would you go to the hospital that used stock power supplies, cords and cheap outlets or would you go to the one in the video or another one like it !!!

2. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

FYI...there are several great technical resources like the URL above and new cable guides, etc...with in-depth discussions and expositions on Shunyata's website...

[jayvis]

I've decided to forgo what could be a futile and overly expensive tweak with power cords. I'm going to just enjoy my system with the stock cords for now. Thanks for everyone's opinions.

[Mikado463]

Originally Posted by GrantS

No. That is not true, not even close.

I don't want to belabor this as I don't have time for a lot of back and forth, but I'll clarify. The problem with stock power cords isn't just "gauge". Most of the connectors have very scant, poor quality metals and in many cases, you can literally bend the pins this way and that--similar in its poorly engineered quality to the outlet you saw later in the video.

Mac and other high-end gear may sound fine with a stock power cord and if someone's happy with those, all's good. I was here answering a question. I know from 18 years of experience that the vast, vast majority of good electronics will sound a good deal better with better-than-stock power cords and there are many reasons why, not just "gauge".

There are no 15A IEC stock-power cords of any gauge that are crimped or soldered; meaning the metal conductors barely touch the metal pins at either end of the power cord and they are held in place by the molded ends. This is fine for toasters and microwaves, but not so much for analog-output electronics that pull sharply off the top/bottom of the sine wave in micro-second pulses in the service of music and sound reproduction. The wire itself in these stock cords is poor quality and has a high-resistance compared to better quality copper. Again, these stock power cords were designed for function, not performance.

The AC signal will encounter resistance at every point where there is a poor or insufficient connection or path for peak-current. When replacing or improving points of added resistance with a better outlet, better than stock power cords, or having an electrician tighten the breaker at the panel that serves your audio gear, the differences are straightforward, easy to hear in almost ANY system. In some cases the differences are quite dramatic to staggering.

The videos aren't a side-show and Caelin does know whereof he speaks, coming from a family of master-electricians and studying electrical systems during his time in the NSA. In addition, we've measured and studied all kinds of power cords and developed an entire series of our own custom-designed parts using listening and measurement. There are measurable and easy-to-hear differences in a power cord's gauge, termination method, connector quality, wire quality, wire-geometry and shielding versus no-shielding, and filtering, obviously.

Regarding the outlet comparison--there is a very similar commercially available outlet to the high-quality one you saw in the video. Its model name is a 5362 Hubbel SPEC Grade. They are _amazing_ performance wise and cost around $30, maybe less. I recommend them to all who ask and they are worth every penny. Ours are custom-modified (by Hubbel) versions of that outlet and have been cryo-treated so they perform better but its not night-day in terms of differences. Our CopperConn (solid copper) outlets are indeed an enormous improvement from either of those models, but we don't sell them; instead they are used in our Triton and Denali models.

By the way, Hospital Grade outlets are terrible in terms of sound because they apply a heavy plate of Nickel (poor conductor of current) to protect the brass pins from solvents and the wet-air environments in hospitals. They measure as highly resistive to peak-current and compared to the $30 5362 SPEC model they are well, terrible in terms of sound.

I'm happy to answer honestly asked questions whenever I can find the time.

Regards,

Grant

thank you Grant !

[GrantS]

Originally Posted by Masterlu

The only manufacturer that I have seen supply a very high end power cable is Burmester. Even with that said, I still chose my own after market power cords.

Audio Research buys OEM 20A (C-19) power cords that are soldered at both ends and measure well in terms of peak-current efficiency. That doesn't mean well-engineered after-market aren't better, but at least there is a starting point of 'better than the average stock power cord'.

Grant

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by jayvis

I've decided to forgo what could be a futile and overly expensive tweak with power cords. I'm going to just enjoy my system with the stock cords for now. Thanks for everyone's opinions.

Shoot, if you want to try out some Shunyata power cords, send me a PM with your home address and I'll lend you a couple (a Venom 3 and a Copperhead) for a few weeks to try out. You can decide in your own home if you like 'em or not.

Absolutely no pressure, just tryin' to help out.

[Masterlu]

[jayvis]

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

Shoot, if you want to try out some Shunyata power cords, send me a PM with your home address and I'll lend you a couple (a Venom 3 and a Copperhead) for a few weeks to try out. You can decide in your own home if you like 'em or not.

Absolutely no pressure, just tryin' to help out.

I really appreciate your generous offer Puma Cat, but I've made my decision for now. It's possible that I might get drawn back into power cord experimentation sometime in the future.

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by jayvis

I really appreciate your generous offer Puma Cat, but I've made my decision for now. It's possible that I might get drawn back into power cord experimentation sometime in the future.

No worries, if you change your mind, just let me know. I have a couple sitting around here that are unused at the present time.