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[DesW]

Allow me to express a debt of gratitude to querstrommotor/Ekki above for superb

and detailed Précis of the SUT/MC matching and Mixing

Excellent writing thank you

DesW

[maril555]

Originally Posted by querstrommotor

Regarding to the SUT/cartridge matching, I like to go a little more into details.....
We always read here, that a A23 Denon SUT is not such a good match to an EMT cart, than the A23 T2, so why is that the case....???
The original EMT step up transformers in the EMT 930 ans 927 turntables had a step up ratio if 1:7, the reason for that is that an EMT TSD15 has a nominal output of 1mV.
The internal impedance is something around 22 Ohm.
Now let´s see the technical data on the DL 103 - a standard DL 103 - not the R version has a internal impedance of 40 Ohm and the output is around 0,25mV - that is 4(!!!!!) times lower than the EMT has.
Let´s put away the impedance difference for a moment and think about the output voltage of both carts.
If we use a standard DL 103 SUT - like the A23 Denon SUT, than we get something around 24-26db gain with such a SUT - because it has a much higher turn ratio, than the original vintage EMT transformer designed to match the cart.

Lets get a step further and have a look on the gain stages of a given RIAA stage.
Lets say our RIAA has a total amount of gain in MM mode of 40db, which is quite usual for a lot of tube RIAA stages - than we get with the Denon compatible SUT a total amount of gain of around 26db+40db from the MM tube RIAA stage - makes together 66db gain, which is a good match for a classic DL 103 with 0,25mV output.
Now lets calculate that with the EMT TSD15.
As the TSD15 has a lower internal impedance in comparison to the Denon (22Ohm instead of 40Ohm) we will get a bit less gain from our DL103 compatible SUT - it will be around 22db - together with the 40db gain of our given tube MM RIAA stage we will have
something like 62db total gain with the EMT.
Now back to the technical specs of the EMT - this cart has 1mV output!!!!
It never needs 62db total amount of phono gain.

Now lets go even one more step further into this - the input of our RIAA stages gets the output of the cart - "amplified" with the turn ratio of a given SUT.
In our example the input of our tube RIAA gets a way too hot signal from the team EMT/DL103compatible SUT.
That will cause compression - and it will cause a type of swinging, because the loudest signal is not the music cut in our records, much louder are the clicks and pops.
So our RIAA will be able to handle a record with low cutted amplitude - in a case where we have a orchestra tutti, it will compress, and in the case of a click or popp wie will have much more problems....

That little example shows why a DL 103 SUT is NOT a good idea to use with an EMT cart.
And yes - there might be RIAA stages with a max. amount of 30db gain - were such a SUT might work - but absolutely not with a RIAA with 40 or more db of gain!

Lets have a look at the impedance side of our example.
The DL 103 has nearly twice as much internal resistance - 40 Ohm - the EMT has 22.
If we connect a DL 103 to a compatible SUT - like the A23 Denon SUT, the cart sees if our RIAA has a input impedance of 47Kohm (standard) 100 Ohm.
That is a good SUT termination of the DL 103 - the EMT works not optimal with these data....

That is the reason why EMT did not use a 1:10 SUT in the past - and that is also the reason, why a Hommage T2 works better - much better with an EMT than the DL 103 SUT.

As you can see it is no voodoo it is plain physics.

Lets come to the low impedance side of a Hommage T1 or a Shindo internal SUT.
As we hopefully know - the original Ortofon SPU was a cart, which had a internal resistance of 3Ohm or lower.
Today Ortofon changed that - nearly on every SPU.
Today we have only the Meister Silver, which has around 3 Ohm internal resistance (the older version had 2 Ohm).
A SPU Classic has 6 Ohm as it is also the case with the SPU Royal.
You might now suggest the Synergy SPU´s - but thy are a different thing - they have internal resistance which would match the old generation of SPU´s, they have 2 or 3 Ohm resistance - but, and that is a big BUT - they have nearly double as much output as a classic original vintage SPU had....!!!!
They used a technique we find in MC´s as My Sonic Lab and Air Tight PC1 or PC1 Supreme - all Matsudaira San made carts, who uses a very special core to achieve low impedance and high output for that given impedance - so everything else than the original SPU stuff.
As I understand, Shindo made his phono sections with a classic original SPU in mind - so non of the modern SPU carts will match his design, the only one today would be the Meister Silver SPU or his own Shindo SPU.

If we go again a little bit deeper - the Shindo Mersault arm is made with a SPU A geometry in mind - if you look today at the Ortofon portfolio, you will recognize, there is no single SPU A available anymore....
And as Jonathan mentioned, also the shell material changed in the past.
No backelite anymore - they used aluminium, and today a sort of resin - so also that detail ist different today....

That means, if you have a Shindo arm, there is today only the Shindo SPU, which is a true classic SPU A with a backelite shell.
If you use a SPU on a Ligno Lab Garrard together with a tonearm of your choice - lets say the EMT arm, than you have a chance to order that arm with a G shell geometry and so you are able to use a Meister Silver SPU together with that arm - and have a combination, which will work properly with the internal SUT of a Shindo phono section.

Lets talk about a Koetsu now - a Koetsu has a internal resistance of 5 Ohm - that is also the case with a wide range of carts today - nearly all Lyra carts have around 5 Ohm (not the Delos!!!!), Dynavector Te Kaitora and so on.
A Koetsu needs a different turn ratio - not as high, as a true classic SPU - it works best with SUT´s which have around 1:20 - the internal SUT´s in the Shindo phono sections have a much higher turn ratio - which is made - you guess it.....for a classic - original - SPU!!!!!

There are today some SUT´s on the market, which fit the bill of a Kotsu - that is the Koetsu SUT itself (not the best....and way tooo expensive for what it is), a Lyra Erodion (much better than the Koetsu SUT), Bob´s Devices, Silver Core (very good) and so on....

As you can see, there are a lot of things to keep in mind - if the result should work the best way.

If we come back to Shindo - Ken had always the complete chain in mind - not just one piece of gear - it is a whole system!
And the gear has a historic approach!

The historic approach is in todays world in most if the cases the deal breaker - because today most of the high end world stepped miles away from what we had in the 50ties and 60ties.
Today we have nearly no thin paper loudspeakers anymore, as you could see in my writing above - a Ortofon SPU today is something completely different, than 20 years ago, cables are made today, which damp HF - a problem which was non existent in classic tub technology.
Today our modern high tech HiFi gear has switching power supplies and a lot of digital HF - so these modern cables makes sometimes sense with what the industry has to offer today - but it is totally wrong with classic tube stuff!!!!
Power cables are heavy shielded today because of all the HF dirt the gar produces itself ( a media server is nothing else, than a computer!) - in a classic tube system, we do not need that - and it is again not compatible with such equipment.
A classic made tube amp sounds best with unshielded power cables - as Shindo uses them - it looks strange in comparison to a NBS cable (looks impressive - true high end....????) - which is fine with a Mark Levinson but not with a Shindo, Air Tight, vintage Marantz 8B oder 9.....

And finally all this true classic tube gear has input and output impedance values, which are long forgotten today.
In classic tube preamps, you have mainly 3 techniques to lower the output-impednace to around 600 Ohm or lower, that is an output transformer, a SRPP output stage or a kathode follower.
Normally those 600 Ohm (it was a standard in the past - what a great time that was....!) output impedance of such a classic tube pre worked with a power amp which had 10 Kohm input impedance - a perfect match!
Now go ahead, and look to the modern power amps - and their input impedance - and you will recognize, that we are far away from that standard, we had in the past.
Another problem is - that a classic tube line stage has way tooo much gain for what a modern amp needs - today we have digital gear with output voltage of 2V and much, much more....a DCS Paganini could generate 6V!!!!!
So a preamp is today a voltage damping device!
In those years in the 60ties we needed gain - because our main source was a record player - with a SPU cart, which had after all gain stages of our phono section something around 1V - and less!!!!

I could go on and on - what I wrote are just a view examples - just a view.......


Hope that enlightens a little bit, why Jonathan is telling us to keep on track with gear, which is compatible to what Shindo produces.
To built up a Shindo system is a totally different kind of thing as nearly all the other stuff we put together today - and to be honest - how often does a modern system, we put together with different brands and technology get the synergy a complete Sindo setting has to offer....together with some of the other products, like for example EMT and A23 which is compatible to the classic way Shindo constructed his gear.

Have a nice day and hopefully some better understanding of the things behind the curtain - and sorry for my english....

Ekki

Ekki,
Thank you so much, that was outstanding.
Exactly what I needed to understand Shindo approach.
Makes perfect sense, explaining my own observations using internal Shindo MC stage.
One thing though,
You stated, that internal Shindo SUT has much higher, than 20 step-up ratio,
But dividing Shindo VR MM stage sensitivity (3mV) by MC stage sensitivity (0.2 mV), we come up with 1:15 step-up ratio?
That is a crucial issue for me personally, as internal VR SUT has too much gain for my Koetsu Urushi cart and my 108 dB speakers, and I'm trying to determine which of the 3rd party SUTs will have lower step-up ratio, than VR SUT, and sound better in the process.
Bob Sattin of Bob's devices thinks his Sky SUT with 1:10 ratio should be a good match.
I have written to Keith of Auditorium 23, asking the same question, but he hasn't answered yet.
Thank you for mentioning a few SUT brands, that you consider to be a good match for Koetsu.
I'm not familiar with Silver Core, what is it?
Thank you again

[maril555]

Originally Posted by junker

No, it just adds that much gain to whatever the cartridge is putting out. So, you need more gain with a low output cartridge and less gain with a high output cartridge.

That's what I thought

[querstrommotor]

maril 555

I think you calculate the turn ratio in a wrong way - because you calculate with the active parts - means total sensivity and gain - that is not what I ment.
What you would need is the spec sheet of the internal SUT!
With a 1:15 it is impossible to get a proper match with a classic (means really low impedance SPU - like the Shindo SPU) SPU - such a cart should see something around 60 Ohm from the SUT, which is not possible with a 1:15 SUT.

In your whole calculation of gain, you have to put also the line gain, the gain of the amplifier and it´s sensivity and the sensivity of your speakers.
And at this point you know now why a Shindo amplifier has input sensivity pots!!!

A Shindo line stage, as also other classic line stages (Marantz 7 for example) is able to give much more than 8V output gain with a given 1V input.
That is very much different from what modern line stages can do - because in the modern world, we have CD Players with 2V minimum output - sometimes much more - see my older mail.
But there are also classic MC carts on the market, like a Kondo IO, Ikeda and others, which have much less output than a vintage SPU - in the case of a Kondo extremely less.
If you want to use such a very low output cart (not compatible with a SPU SUT - most of them need 1 Ohm SUT´s) - than you are more than happy, that you can ad to the RIAA gain also line gain - today an active line stage is not amplifying something - these stages damp and go for impedance matching issues between sources and the amplifier.
In the older days it was not seldom the case that a MC cart has very low output - and so a line stage has to amplify.
There is a position on your volumen pot, where the line stage makes nothing - no damping and no amplification - right from that point the line stage starts to amplify left of it it´s job is damping.
As you know, your pot has also a optimal section, in which it delivers the best stereo performance - means balance between right and left - or balancing errors.
This optimal range is never at the Beginning of the pot´range - it is somwhere in the midle - and there is also the point, where damping and amplification start to blend one into another.
I do not know where exactly this point is with your Shindo pre, but you can measure that.
For such a technical thing you need a very sensitive Volt meter - best thing is one vintage thing with a needle - not the cheap digital stuff from the radio shop....
You use your laptop with a sine wave generator - turn up the volume on the computer - till you measure at the cinch connector (an adapter is needed) coming from the computer the output power - lets say your MAC book is able to generate 1V output.
Than you plug the laptop in the Shindo line stage - use CD in.
Than you measure with a cable connected to the output of your line stage - it is easier to do it with a cable connected to the output plug, as using the plug directly.
You turn the volume up an look what is going on....
If there is less than 1V at the output of the line stage - than it is damping the input signal - which is as you remember 1V from the computer.
THan there will be a point, where the output is exactly 1V - that is, were the line stages makes no damping and no additional gain - after that position it comes the section at the pot, were the line stage is adding gain - means really amplify something.
Now you know were the point exactly is at your volume pot range.

Normally it will be right of the 12 o´clock position.

Most people are afraid to use the input volume pots which your Shindo amp comes with.
That is stupid - they think - o my good a potentiometer in the signalflow......ohhhhhhh!!!
Some very intelligent guys take them out of the signal path - and call it tuning - I call it bullshit!
Because only with these pot´s in place you have the big advantage to adjust the input sensivity of your amplifier - and get your line stage to the right level of performance and the gain in the whole system right.

At the end Jonathan and Matt give you a whole system which will work as it was ment by Ken Shindo - it is that simple and customers who do that do not have to deal with all this issues.
If you use different carts, SUTs, match a Shindo pre with a different amp or the other way arround - use not recommended speakers - than the user has to deal with a lot of technical things to get it right - and often there is no way to get it right - a class A triode amp will never perform with a typical modern multi way speaker.

I do not say that in terms of a cart it is not possible - but you have to dig deeper, than just connecting and adjusting a cart.
You have to deal with a cart compatible SUT, with gain in your system and so on.

And there are much more things in the technical side of putting a system together.
For example an amplifier with no neg feedback will have a greater inputsensivity than a ultra linear push pull amp with neg feedback loops.
That is important in the case to match such an amp to a certain pre - the gain staging through a given system is everything than simple.
But keep in mind - in a certain range you can handle that through your input potentiometers which your amp comes with.

Carts which will work fantastic are:
SPU Meister Silver (if the tonearm feature the G Shell geometry)
Shindo SPU (if the tonearm feature A Shell geometry)

EMT TSD15
EMT´s new TSD 75 if you want to use a TSD mc with a 1/4" Headshellsystem - it is than compatible with a wide range of tonearms
EMT JSD range - that is maybe the pinnacle of the EMT sound - very, very good sound!

Denon DL 103 - and if you do yourself a favor - buy the Ligno Lab DL 103 shell for it - do not lough - it is in this case a giant killer!

For all the above mentioned carts, there is a matching transformer, which is compatible to Shindo gear in the A23 portfolio - or the SUT which Shindo puts into his RIAA sections.

You have the Hommage T1 for SPU style MC, the Hommage T2 for EMT and the DL 103 SUT for an DL 103 - which will also work with the Hommage T2.

If you want to use a Lyra or Koetsu - than you will have to buy a 1:10 Silvercore or a Lyra Erodion, a self made Jensen or something like that.

And the question will be - is a Koetsu a god match with a Shindo system....????
I would say no!
I like Koetsu and have two of them in use - but not with such a Shindo system!

Koetsu - the wood bodies - have a loose bass, and a polite treble, they are also not very dynamic - as a EMT JSD5 for example - the stone bodies are a different kind oft thing - but they are extremely expensive!
And a Shindo system needs nothing of what a Koetsu is famous for.....so.....

With a Lyra it is maybe a different kind of thing - but a Lyra is very arm sensitive - and it will not perform very good with the classic arms, we will find in the Shindo world.
A Lyra performs fantastic with a Frank Schroeder arm, a Graham Phantom, a Spiral Groove for example - but not with a SME 3012, Ortofon 309i or EMT tonearm.

These classic studio tonearms are made for - yes, you already know it - the classic studio carts....also here comes together, what fits together.

So it is not possible to have a classic SPU and a Lyra Etna in the same tonearm - the eff mass which both carts like to see are sooooo different.
Both need different SUT and so on....

Hope that helps

greetings Ekki

[maril555]

Originally Posted by querstrommotor

maril 555

I think you calculate the turn ratio in a wrong way - because you calculate with the active parts - means total sensivity and gain - that is not what I ment.
What you would need is the spec sheet of the internal SUT!
With a 1:15 it is impossible to get a proper match with a classic (means really low impedance SPU - like the Shindo SPU) SPU - such a cart should see something around 60 Ohm from the SUT, which is not possible with a 1:15 SUT.

In your whole calculation of gain, you have to put also the line gain, the gain of the amplifier and it´s sensivity and the sensivity of your speakers.
And at this point you know now why a Shindo amplifier has input sensivity pots!!!

A Shindo line stage, as also other classic line stages (Marantz 7 for example) is able to give much more than 8V output gain with a given 1V input.
That is very much different from what modern line stages can do - because in the modern world, we have CD Players with 2V minimum output - sometimes much more - see my older mail.
But there are also classic MC carts on the market, like a Kondo IO, Ikeda and others, which have much less output than a vintage SPU - in the case of a Kondo extremely less.
If you want to use such a very low output cart (not compatible with a SPU SUT - most of them need 1 Ohm SUT´s) - than you are more than happy, that you can ad to the RIAA gain also line gain - today an active line stage is not amplifying something - these stages damp and go for impedance matching issues between sources and the amplifier.
In the older days it was not seldom the case that a MC cart has very low output - and so a line stage has to amplify.
There is a position on your volumen pot, where the line stage makes nothing - no damping and no amplification - right from that point the line stage starts to amplify left of it it´s job is damping.
As you know, your pot has also a optimal section, in which it delivers the best stereo performance - means balance between right and left - or balancing errors.
This optimal range is never at the Beginning of the pot´range - it is somwhere in the midle - and there is also the point, where damping and amplification start to blend one into another.
I do not know where exactly this point is with your Shindo pre, but you can measure that.
For such a technical thing you need a very sensitive Volt meter - best thing is one vintage thing with a needle - not the cheap digital stuff from the radio shop....
You use your laptop with a sine wave generator - turn up the volume on the computer - till you measure at the cinch connector (an adapter is needed) coming from the computer the output power - lets say your MAC book is able to generate 1V output.
Than you plug the laptop in the Shindo line stage - use CD in.
Than you measure with a cable connected to the output of your line stage - it is easier to do it with a cable connected to the output plug, as using the plug directly.
You turn the volume up an look what is going on....
If there is less than 1V at the output of the line stage - than it is damping the input signal - which is as you remember 1V from the computer.
THan there will be a point, where the output is exactly 1V - that is, were the line stages makes no damping and no additional gain - after that position it comes the section at the pot, were the line stage is adding gain - means really amplify something.
Now you know were the point exactly is at your volume pot range.

Normally it will be right of the 12 o´clock position.

Most people are afraid to use the input volume pots which your Shindo amp comes with.
That is stupid - they think - o my good a potentiometer in the signalflow......ohhhhhhh!!!
Some very intelligent guys take them out of the signal path - and call it tuning - I call it bullshit!
Because only with these pot´s in place you have the big advantage to adjust the input sensivity of your amplifier - and get your line stage to the right level of performance and the gain in the whole system right.

At the end Jonathan and Matt give you a whole system which will work as it was ment by Ken Shindo - it is that simple and customers who do that do not have to deal with all this issues.
If you use different carts, SUTs, match a Shindo pre with a different amp or the other way arround - use not recommended speakers - than the user has to deal with a lot of technical things to get it right - and often there is no way to get it right - a class A triode amp will never perform with a typical modern multi way speaker.

I do not say that in terms of a cart it is not possible - but you have to dig deeper, than just connecting and adjusting a cart.
You have to deal with a cart compatible SUT, with gain in your system and so on.

And there are much more things in the technical side of putting a system together.
For example an amplifier with no neg feedback will have a greater inputsensivity than a ultra linear push pull amp with neg feedback loops.
That is important in the case to match such an amp to a certain pre - the gain staging through a given system is everything than simple.
But keep in mind - in a certain range you can handle that through your input potentiometers which your amp comes with.

Carts which will work fantastic are:
SPU Meister Silver (if the tonearm feature the G Shell geometry)
Shindo SPU (if the tonearm feature A Shell geometry)

EMT TSD15
EMT´s new TSD 75 if you want to use a TSD mc with a 1/4" Headshellsystem - it is than compatible with a wide range of tonearms
EMT JSD range - that is maybe the pinnacle of the EMT sound - very, very good sound!

Denon DL 103 - and if you do yourself a favor - buy the Ligno Lab DL 103 shell for it - do not lough - it is in this case a giant killer!

For all the above mentioned carts, there is a matching transformer, which is compatible to Shindo gear in the A23 portfolio - or the SUT which Shindo puts into his RIAA sections.

You have the Hommage T1 for SPU style MC, the Hommage T2 for EMT and the DL 103 SUT for an DL 103 - which will also work with the Hommage T2.

If you want to use a Lyra or Koetsu - than you will have to buy a 1:10 Silvercore or a Lyra Erodion, a self made Jensen or something like that.

And the question will be - is a Koetsu a god match with a Shindo system....????
I would say no!
I like Koetsu and have two of them in use - but not with such a Shindo system!

Koetsu - the wood bodies - have a loose bass, and a polite treble, they are also not very dynamic - as a EMT JSD5 for example - the stone bodies are a different kind oft thing - but they are extremely expensive!
And a Shindo system needs nothing of what a Koetsu is famous for.....so.....

With a Lyra it is maybe a different kind of thing - but a Lyra is very arm sensitive - and it will not perform very good with the classic arms, we will find in the Shindo world.
A Lyra performs fantastic with a Frank Schroeder arm, a Graham Phantom, a Spiral Groove for example - but not with a SME 3012, Ortofon 309i or EMT tonearm.

These classic studio tonearms are made for - yes, you already know it - the classic studio carts....also here comes together, what fits together.

So it is not possible to have a classic SPU and a Lyra Etna in the same tonearm - the eff mass which both carts like to see are sooooo different.
Both need different SUT and so on....

Hope that helps

greetings Ekki

Ekki,
Thanks again.
Couple of things- I have calculated internal SUT ratio that way, following Junker's advise from a few posts above.
I do get your point about Koetsu, but I have to report, that my personal experience is somewhat slightly different.
With my other preamp, Tron Syren II Ultimate, I had Lyra Kleos (my tonearm is Graham Phantom Supreme II), and switching to Koetsu Urushi in the same arm, I didn't feel I was loosing much, if any, of the resolution and HF, compared to Lyra.
I always had an feeling, that Lyra slightly exaggerates upper midrange and treble, at least in my system.
So, Koetsu sounds more "organic" in this particular case.
I didn't have Lyra by the time I got Shindo, so I cannot tell, but Koetsu sounds fairly similar through Shindo, as through Tron Syren, and I kind of like it.
With regards to the line stage gain:
Shindo definitely provides way more gain, than I need.
The volume control is at 7-8 position, at best (the very beginning of the available range), certainly is not optimal.
To deal with that issue, I could conceivably lower an input sensitivity of my Lamm ML2 power amps (I have done it before, with the personal blessing from Vladimir Lamm himself).
The more logical (Shindo) way would be Shindo power amp, but then Jonathan advised against doing it, since "they don't pair well" with my Avantgarde speakers)
The other question: you suggested EMT JD 5, JD 6 carts, but they have 1.0 mV output, and my 0.5 mV Koetsu is already too much???
And then Graham Phantom might not be the best match with EMT cart,(EMT likes high mass arms?).
That leaves with with three choices:
1. Explore different SUTs, trying to match Koetsu and lower my amps input sensitivity to optimize line stage performance.
2. Get rid of Vosne Romanee
3. Go with the whole Shindo system approach.

[junker]

I would consider doing an in-home audition with the Shindo Cortese (8wpc) and then decide what to do.

[DesW]

Reading the depth of Knowledge and writing of Ekki is indeed enlightening again--Kudos indeed

Just to add re the Koetsus--I've owned 4of them and used with varies SUT's /Active steps including Koetsu's own,

Denon/FR/Klyne--the only one that allowed the K's to shine especially the stone bodied ones was the Cotter 2L

pictured--it was designed to bring the best out of the K's.

There are couple for sale on the net at present--thats the one I'd go for

I agree the Auditoriums are great SUTS

--I've owned one--for the specific carts intended

The Koestus are beasts of the different flavour however and need careful co-joining

Good Luck

DesW

[maril555]

Originally Posted by DesW

Reading the depth of Knowledge and writing of Ekki is indeed enlightening again--Kudos indeed

Just to add re the Koetsus--I've owned 4of them and used with varies SUT's /Active steps including Koetsu's own,

Denon/FR/Klyne--the only one that allowed the K's to shine especially the stone bodied ones was the Cotter 2L

pictured--it was designed to bring the best out of the K's.

There are couple for sale on the net at present--thats the one I'd go for

I agree the Auditoriums are great SUTS

--I've owned one--for the specific carts intended

The Koestus are beasts of the different flavour however and need careful co-joining

Good Luck

DesW

Do you, by any chance, remember step up ratio of Cotter MK2 L?

[DesW]

Originally Posted by maril555

Do you, by any chance, remember step up ratio of Cotter MK2 L?

No I was not interested in that fact--I bought mine from Mitch Direct at his NY Factory after an entertaining tour--he stated the 2L was produced specific for the Koetsu cart --good enough for me

The combination was sublime

More ears less measurements -is my motto--

YVMV

DesW

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/m...tter/spt.shtml

[querstrommotor]

Hi guys, hi meril 555

again, it is not correct to calculate a SUT´s ratio with just not knowing how much of the complete gain structure of a given preamp is done with the SUT, and which of that gain is made by the active stages.
And the calculation method you described it is exactly that, what brings you to a complete wrong suggestion - and it did not get more correct, if we repeat it one more time - sorry ;-)))
You need to have the specs of the SUT!!!!!

You have to read my post again - as I mentioned the EMT JSD - I did that with a compatible SUT in mind.
The Output of a MC cart is one story, the turn ratio of a SUT designed for the EMT another - please read my first post again - there you will find, that EMT Carts need a 1:7 ratio - which will be less gain put into the actives stage of the RIAA than a Koetsu used with the internal MC section of the fantastic VR pre...

That example shows you that a cart, which has double the output of a Koetsu, can give less total output if you use a EMT compatible SUT with a turn ratio of 1:7, than a Koetsu with 0.5mV driven with a complete incompatible SUT - and till now unknown turn ratio (internal SUT of Shindo VR) - which was made for a Shindo SPU or real classic SPU´s with 2 or 3 Ohm internal impedance.


Now I come to the most strange - sorry for that - part of your last mail.
You really tell us, that a Koetsu Urushi and a Lyra Kleos have nearly the same resolution - that is something I can not understand.....
Which brings me to some more things....
The Graham is perfect for the Lyra Kleos - and it is everything else than perfect for the Koetsu!
A Koetsu needs a much more heavier arm than a Lyra.
The EMT has a compliance of 15 cu, a Lyra has 12 - that means the EMT has a higher compliance as a Lyra - which will work superb in your Graham - but a Koetsu does not!

To handle a Koetsu is nearly as special as handling a SPU.
If you ask me, a Koetsu needs a Fidelity Research FR64 or FR66 arm and - thank you Des W - a Cotter SUT - but keep in mind - there are different types of cotter SUT´s not all are made to work with a Koetsu.
Last but not least a Koetsu needs a player system with a lot of torque - like a Garrard 301 - or a lot of mass like a Micro Seiki 5000 or 1500.
The thing is - the Koetsu is a very classic and old design - they changed in the past some things, to be more compatible to what is available today - but none of the Koetsu dealers tells you the truth - how a Koetsu should be used, because the gear you need to let a Koetsu shine is not very common!
I see Koetsu carts in SME V or Linn arms - that will never work as it could be....

Coming back to Lyra versus Koetsu - both compared working under optimal conditions, you would never say, that they have identical resolution - and also not the same gestalt - I speak only of the wood Koetsu - not the stone ones!!!!
The Lyra has not a bump in the presence - the Koetsu has a dip there.
The Lyra is very neutral - the only thing it will show is a HF rise from 17Khz up.
The dynamic abilities of a Lyra are completely different to a Koetsu - and I do not say - one is better than the other - what I say is - that they both are on completely different sides of the spectrum.

It is like it is - we focus too much on single components - without thinking any further...
Some want a Koetsu - but do not think any further - that it will need a different arm, and a different sut - or it will not show it´s best performance on a linn.
Others wanted to have a Lyra - a cart which sends great energy into the arm - but they have a SME V oder IV in their systems - and the SME is very, very stiff (Armtube) it does not absorb the energy put into the arm, it reflects the energy - which means a Lyra sounds hard, aggressive and tot like it could sound in a Graham or Spiral Groove or Schröder arm.

To have that in mind, you can now understand a lot of sound descriptions at the web.
Lyra= cold, harsh, analytic, fast, dynamic....
Koetsu: slow, wooly bass, dark, lot of flow - great for vocals....

That is the typical description, you will find, letting you know - both carts, as described like above are used with wrong gear...!

Ad it is a little bit the same story with your complete system - Avantgarde - Lamm - Shindo - Koetsu .....

Why do you not try a Lamm RIAA stage together with a Lamm line stage - it would be something completely different, than the Shindo VR - but it is made to fit with Lamm amps???
It you want to go the Shindo way - than it is much more complicated - because a Shindo preamp is made for Shindo amps - they are made for high impedance speakers with great sensivity.
And the RIAA section of the VR is made with a classic original SPU in mind....
That SPU needs a different arm, than a Graham, and such an arm needs also a drive system, which is able to work with such an arm/cart combination.

You have fantastic components - but they give you at the moment not a good system - but you listen through a system not to single components.

So - you can try a Shindo amp as Junker said - but than you have in my opinion the wrong speakers - I agree completely with Jonathan - Avangarde is NOT a good match with Shindo!

@ Des W - thank you for your compliments - as I am an audio engineer (mixing / re recording engineer in film business ) I am used to dig a little bit deeper;-)))))
As I do also a lot of audio restauration work, especially vinyl - I am used to a lot of combination regarding drive systems, arms and carts ( I have here 13 different carts and 5 different arms, as also 5 different drive systems) - so what I try to write is not guessing - it is founded on a technical approach together with years of experience with vintage and modern technology.
My clients come from the record and film industry and also archives - If you do such work, it is most of the time the one and only restauration made to the material - so you have to be sure to get the most out of the material you have to work on. There will be no other instance to do it once again, better or in a different way.
As the material I work on, is a part of our culture (a lot of classic music) you feel a certain pressure on your shoulders to do it in the best possible way (which means to have a vinyl system, which brings most of the given information to a the digital world - I know it is a shame to make all the gerat analog recordings digital - but we live in a digital world - and it is maybe the only chance that the future generations can use it).

I use for the different jobs vintage and modern gear - and - very important - I always try to match the things in a compatible way!!!!!
I use drive systems like Platine, EMT, Commonwealth and Bauer DPS III, arms from EMT, Thomas Schick, Frank Schröder and Spiral Groove, and carts like SPU (vintage and new ones like Shindo SPU) DL 103, Lyra, Zyx, Dynavector, My Sonic Lab, EMT, Ikeda and the Tekeda Miyabi Standard - to name a few.
Preamps are used from Shindo, Air Tight, Klyne, Lamm and Nagra.
SUT from EMT, Neumann, Western Electric, Cotter, Hommage T1, Air Tight and a lot of custom wound SUT.

Over the years I learned that it is always the complete system which brings you the music - not one single component - a perfectly matched system of a lower price range can easily outperform a much more expensive system, which is not perfectly matched!!!!
The industry today leaves the customer in most of the cases alone - we have today nearly no standards in HiFi anymore - Preamps have different in and output impedance figures, which are only compatible to gear from the same company, carts and technical data is often hidden for the customer or is just half of the truth and so on....
Gear like Shindo is made with the idea in mind, people had in the past.
So you have preamps with classic impedance figures like the 600 Ohm standard from the past, amps which can handle that perfectly and also RIAA sections made for the classic carts of the time.
It is a completely different world of hifi, as we will find it most often today.
And that makes it not so easy to put single components of that special and wonderful world into the modern world.
If you leave the Shindo in it´s own world, than you will get more, much more out of the gear. That is a decision you have to make.
If you made it, than it means a lot of consequences - not much gear is out now, which is compatible with the world we had in the 50ties and 60ties - Shindo and also some other companies today bring you that sound again in todays world.
And before you think now - all the Shindo maniacs are all vintage freaks - that is just half of the truth.....
Listen to some vinyl from Mercury, DECCA and RCA Living Stereo - that was recorded in that particular time - and it is a sort of sound and aesthetic we lost over the years - so vintage does not always mean old or antique or outdated.
And that is the world of Shindo - it is a type of HiFi which takes the vintage approach to a new level - as it is written here and elsewhere maybe closer to the music, than a lot of modern systems can do - it is maybe also a matter of taste - because those systems put emotional impact over the last bit of resolution - because resolution deals more with our intellect - a wonderful tone, a big and saturated sound is something for our soul and heart.
And of course I simplify here - because it is much more complex than we can write down in a forum.....
Have a nice day

Ekki