Maybe tubes are not for me? Advise needed.

[esteban]

Originally Posted by jdandy

estaban.......From your description, you are definitely clipping the amplifier's output. If you are listening at a typical level that requires 4 watts into your speakers, and a 12dB peak above average music level comes along, your amplifier will need to be able to deliver an addition 64 watts to reproduce that peak undistorted. Every 3db in volume level requires a doubling of power. You should be using a pair of McIntosh MC275 amplifiers running in mono mode. That will give you more than 150 watts of tube power per channel.

Thanks for the feedback. I would love to own the MC275, but at around $4500 it's almost twice as much as the DiaLogue One and does not have some features that I was in need of, like a home-theater pass-through input, remote, etc. Not to mention, I would need a pre-amp as well. Of all the options I researched, the Prima Luna seemed like the best one for me. It might still be, but obviously there is some major tweaking and adjusting to be done first.

[Masterlu]

Originally Posted by jdandy

estaban.......In order to use the PM feature you need to become a subscriber. The fee is rediculously small when compared to the benefits you receive from this site. I would encourage you to support Audio Aficionado by becoming a subscriber today.

http://audioaficionado.org/payments.php

Dan is correct as usual, thanks!

[Alberto]

Esteban,

Sorry to hear that the delicious sound (TM) you were anticipating is eluding you. The Primaluna integrated I owned some 4-5 years ago was more are on the HiFi-ish and analytic end of the delicious sound spectrum (i.e. not particularly warm) but it was a very competent amp that had no problem driving my Sonus Faber Auditors (that was my setup at the time.)

Of course, mine did not have the triode option so I always operated it in push-pull at about 35W/ch. I am not familiar with the SF Toy line or their impedance curve, but sometimes the nature of the impedance curve has a much bigger impact on the sound/volume than the stated efficiency.

How big is your room and how loud do you normally listen (in dbs)? How far are you sitting from the speakers? Those are all key factors when you consider how much power you need. Check out the following calculator to help you out: Peak SPL Calculator

And report back, please. We want to help.

Alberto

PS The Audio Aficionado subscription fee is ~1% the cost of your amp and 10% the cost of the restocking fee - it's a good deal if it helps you avoid or solve problems.

PPS There is a learning curve to being an audiophile - you will make mistakes and some of them will cost you some money. We've all been there, so don't feel too bad about it.

[Jerome W]

I agree with everything stated here Esteban.
All very good points.
And yes, being a subscriber is a very small cost compared to what it gives you.
This community gives me much more than all the money I give it to each year with my 3 banners. And I'm proud to be a member of it since the beginning.
I did not only receive help for my hobby. I met friends, intellectualy rich and interesting people. They became friends not only on the web but in the real life.
I have a second family here and I don't hesitate to post my personal troubles, pains, sorrows and also my prides and joys, because I know that I won't be judged and will get support and affection from my friends.
I could receive all my friends here to stay in my home as being part of my family and like I would know them since 20 years !

Sorry for hijacking your thead with this but I had to say it.
Now this is my opinion on your problem : if Bill says that a triode mode of 18W can't drive your speakers, and if he wants the name of the dealer, you have the answer you were waiting for.
My speakers are also 8 ohm nominal and 89 dB but the impedance curve may be different.
I think also that the design of the amp, the size of the transfos and the tubes used have a large influence over just "18 W of ultra linear mode".
I just got a pair of Verdier 845 SET. 2x 20 W.
The IMPRESSION ( it's not real I know) of power that I get from them is much higher than my PP of 300W with the 2301's ! But these "little amps" have been designed by one of the great Masters of tube circuits of the 20 th century. His skills in tube circuits designs are known all over the world and he is considered as a "semi God" in Asia, just like Alain Delon !
One of the things he told me yesterday is that the 845 is very special for many things, but especially, it "clips beautifully" : in other words, you don't hear it clipping : you still hear MUSIC, and what MUSIC !
You're hearing the clipping and your clipping has nothing to do with music.
A real SET amp is imo different than a PP with an "ultra linear mode".
When it comes to tubes, I personnaly rely only on VERY experts companies, established since at least 30 years or who have great Masters at the head of R and D department like : McIntosh, Quad, ARC, CJ, Manley, Nagra, Ear, Lamm, Cary, Jadis, Audio Note, Verdier, Shindo, and so on ( sorry for all the ones I don't mention : too many of them !)....Don't want to bash on all the other "young" companies and among them Prima Luna, Unison Research and so on, which received rave reviews and awards. They probably make terrific amps. I'm just a stupid guy who don't give the chance to youngsters for matters who require LOTS of experience imo....

[tdelahanty]

Esteban: From your description my best guess is you're simply over-driving the amp. I also suspect at lower volume it sounds fine. The EL34 is a fine tube but isnot capable of the output power of, say, the KT88/6550 or 845 tubes. If my memory serves me correctly the EL34 also is a pentode device. Any push/pull amp will output slightly more power in the pentode (ultra linear) mode as compared to triode mode. Pentodes are more efficient than triodes and this is due to the way the plate and supressor elements are hooked-up in the output circuit.

Good luck: Tom D.

[esteban]

Thanks all for your input. I truly appreciate it.

I am indeed a new subscriber. Heck, I have paid more for a vibrapod!

Will have more to report shortly while I continue experimenting with speaker set-up, etc.

In the meantime, Bill, please check your PM Inbox.

[chessman]

esteban, red looks good on you!

[Volks]

Welcome Esteban!

[esteban]

Originally Posted by Alberto

The Primaluna integrated I owned some 4-5 years ago was more are on the HiFi-ish and analytic end of the delicious sound spectrum (i.e. not particularly warm) but it was a very competent amp that had no problem driving my Sonus Faber Auditors (that was my setup at the time.)

Alberto, thank you for your feedback. Your adventures in Delicious-Land have certainly been an inspiration for me and actually did play a role in my choosing the DiaLogue amp. If I remember correctly, you used to have one of the ProLogue models. I specifically chose the (considerably more expensive) DiaLogue for its beefed-up transformers and its ability (from what I read) to drive more demanding loads. I did not want to take any chances there. I was supposed to have a local dealer allow me to audition the Toy/DiaLogue combination in-home, but unfortunately it didn't work out and I had to take a chance and go the online route, without a prior audition. I am surprised that you were able to drive the Auditors with no problems at all, yet here I am pulling my hair while I reposition my (much lower-end) Toy Towers for the 25th time...

Originally Posted by Alberto

Of course, mine did not have the triode option so I always operated it in push-pull at about 35W/ch. I am not familiar with the SF Toy line or their impedance curve, but sometimes the nature of the impedance curve has a much bigger impact on the sound/volume than the stated efficiency.

I have been using the ultra-linear mode exclusively after yesterday's experience/scare, and, even though I do miss some of the "laid-back" and more natural texture of the triode sound, I do have to say that (thanks also to some speaker repositioning) things have improved in the bass attack, decay and overall flow. The notes now sound more like notes and not like bloated bubbles ready to burst in any second.

Originally Posted by Alberto

How big is your room and how loud do you normally listen (in dbs)? How far are you sitting from the speakers? Those are all key factors when you consider how much power you need.

My room is on the smallish side. About 11 X 13 X 8, with a narrow open of about an additional 5 feet on the left. Side walls are literally packed with books, movies, posters and CD's (the left wall has a custom made floor-to-ceiling-wall unit). We moved into this place about a year ago, so I am still working on the room, trying to minimize reflections, and I plan to install some panels sometime soon, since I do still have some echo-y spots. Listening position is about 6 feet from the speakers. I do hear a big difference whenever I sit straight in the center of the couch, about 2 feet closer to the speakers (without resting my body against the back of the couch), compared to when I actually lay back on the couch, which unfortunately is placed against the back wall (can't help it) and suffers from the usual back-wall reflections. My wife also "forced" me to have a center-table in between the couch and the speakers. Again, not much can be done about that, either. You can see some images of the room here.

Originally Posted by Alberto

There is a learning curve to being an audiophile - you will make mistakes and some of them will cost you some money. We've all been there, so don't feel too bad about it.

Thanks for those words! Truer ones were rarely spoken.

[jdandy]

esteban.......Your new Red SUBSCRIBER banner looks great under your name. Every subscriber at Audio Aficionado appreciates when a member steps up and helps support the best audio forum on the Web. Thank you for becoming a Subscriber. And guess what? Now you can PM.

Would you be so kind as to tell us your first name. That way we can talk like friends.