Best TT under 20k ?

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by patrick

Not so fast. I am not making the assumptions you assume I am making (can I say that? I do understand well the structure you outline, I also realize the US is a long way from the UK and gear has to ship far and be warrantied internally to the end market. I wonder however, why the distributor of SME makes such a mark up on this line when it's not uniform across other imported audio products.

But thanks for the welcome, I think I know exactly what you mean by it.

Actually you are doing just that. There is no uniformity across other products because manufacturers don't do things uniformly manufacturer to manufacturer. Further, some even have different pricing structure in different parts of their lines.

I said nothing about the costs of being a distributor but of the cost of purchasing the product from the factory. Read again the examples I gave of different manufacturers' models. Do you even know which structure SME uses? What other manufacturers use? Somehow I doubt it. If you did, you probably wouldn't be making the blanket statement you are.

I understand that it's really easy to just moan about a distributor to justify buying something cheaper. All many people care about is the end price and that's ok. We all want a deal. Until you want to have it set up or undo the myth about how it sounds. Then you're on your own. As some people here on AA can attest, sometimes it's better to have a little bit of support.

As for the welcome, I meant it. This is a pretty cool and certainly unique community. I think you'll enjoy it.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by C220MC275

Patrick,

Very good point. This is also what I tried to express but my english is not as good as yours.
Bill ( Metaphacts) answered my question without seeming to understand that factory cost and policies towards importers are not in the equation here. Factory cost is the same for the local market and for the abroad market.
The welcome was a bit " fresh " because you're talking to someone from Sumiko, the US importer of SME. So Bill defends his position. But you probably knew that already !

Jerome,

The welcome was a friendly en garde! Not just from a Sumiko guy but a veteran of the ups and downs of our high end audio industry since the mid 70s. My response is nothing new nor were Patrick's assumptions. And factory cost is not only in the equation, it is the basis for all the equations.

With the advent of the EU what you have is more like US dealers in different states than distributors in different countries. Add in the term "distributor" being used to describe both a true distributor and a dealer/distributor and you get a real pricing morass and huge variations. And assuming that ex factory cost is the same in the home market and the export market is a mistake. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.

Today there are many ways to get a price. Most all of them end up circumventing the guy who did the demo for you because you thought his price was too high. Something about the price of everything and the value of nothing comes to mind. You don't feel that you should contribute to his cost of doing business so you take your business to someone else. Usually that somebody else is somebody who simply lowballed your local guy and took the sale. He had no carrying costs, it's found money. Again that is your call. But the guy who paid for you to hear the product, whose facilities helped you to make the decision, the guy who would dial in your purchase is not a bad guy for covering his costs and making sufficient profit to sustain his business.

Now with the internet and people supposedly knowing more and more about what they are buying, am I just a bit out of touch? Perhaps. Yet I see system after system set up and tweaked to within a inch of it's life, but so far below the basic performance potential of when it came out of the box, you have to ask yourself how far have we really come? For example, would the SME really be a deal if yours sounds like your previous forum post claims it does while my customer gets one that plays music the way it's supposed to (and does)? Hmm.

Next time you do an A/B of a couple of really expensive components that are thousands of $$ apart with a commensurate performance difference, ask yourself how much you would pay for someone to come in and make your system sound as much better as the component upgrade does. If you are honest, you will probably give a figure much, much smaller than the cost difference between the two components. We'll always pay for hardware but rarely for the knowledge used to optimize it's performance. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?

Yes I am old fashioned and I think you should support your service and facilities based and if possible local dealer, even if it means paying a bit more. I won't apologize for it.

[Jerome W]

Bill,
You're talking of many different things here.
I agree for most of it.
My example with the center channel is different of what you describe, because my dealer did not have the speaker in demo. He was just ordering it for me if I paid for. So basically, he was acting like a web business site.
You're not old fashionned when you say that we have to pay for the listening and the set up. That is my thinking too and it is a question of honesty.
I will never buy a product in store A if I had the demo in store B, just because A is less expensive. Having a real auditorium is a service we have to pay for.
I agree 100%. And also the set up of the gear we buy. In Paris, I only had a very pro set up in my audiophile history and it was from my Linn dealer.
For a pair of Keilidh speakers, costing about 1000 euros at this time, they stayed more than 1 hour to fine tune the position of the speakers in my room.
To compare, think that when I bought my EB1i at an official dealer audio shop, they just delivered the speakers to me : no set up of any kind !!
Many dealers are paid for the demo and for the set up and few of them really make the set up or, when they make it, they know no more than me and it is not well done at all ! I have seen many examples like that around me and not only in my home, for speakers and TT. ( no set up work is required for other stuff of course....)

I believe that the importation market in the US is just too complicated for me to understand !

BTW, talking about set up, you and your wife are invited to stay in my home near Paris when you wish to and for the time you want, and you'll tune my speakers position, and you'll check my TT, ok ?

Cheers,

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Jerome,

The welcome was a friendly en garde! Not just from a Sumiko guy but a veteran of the ups and downs of our high end audio industry since the mid 70s. My response is nothing new nor were Patrick's assumptions. And factory cost is not only in the equation, it is the basis for all the equations.

With the advent of the EU what you have is more like US dealers in different states than distributors in different countries. Add in the term "distributor" being used to describe both a true distributor and a dealer/distributor and you get a real pricing morass and huge variations. And assuming that ex factory cost is the same in the home market and the export market is a mistake. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.

Today there are many ways to get a price. Most all of them end up circumventing the guy who did the demo for you because you thought his price was too high. Something about the price of everything and the value of nothing comes to mind. You don't feel that you should contribute to his cost of doing business so you take your business to someone else. Usually that somebody else is somebody who simply lowballed your local guy and took the sale. He had no carrying costs, it's found money. Again that is your call. But the guy who paid for you to hear the product, whose facilities helped you to make the decision, the guy who would dial in your purchase is not a bad guy for covering his costs and making sufficient profit to sustain his business.

Now with the internet and people supposedly knowing more and more about what they are buying, am I just a bit out of touch? Perhaps. Yet I see system after system set up and tweaked to within a inch of it's life, but so far below the basic performance potential of when it came out of the box, you have to ask yourself how far have we really come? For example, would the SME really be a deal if yours sounds like your previous forum post claims it does while my customer gets one that plays music the way it's supposed to (and does)? Hmm.

Next time you do an A/B of a couple of really expensive components that are thousands of $$ apart with a commensurate performance difference, ask yourself how much you would pay for someone to come in and make your system sound as much better as the component upgrade does. If you are honest, you will probably give a figure much, much smaller than the cost difference between the two components. We'll always pay for hardware but rarely for the knowledge used to optimize it's performance. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?

Yes I am old fashioned and I think you should support your service and facilities based and if possible local dealer, even if it means paying a bit more. I won't apologize for it.

[Jerome W]

Bill,

The more I listen to my TT set up, the more I like it and find that improvements needed are finally very small and could be dependant only on the cart.
On my way for upgrading, I could start by the cart and see what it does.
Do you think that the Sumiko Palo Santos cart could be fitted on my Clearaudio Satisfy Ebony arm ?
Thanks a lot !

[two dot]

Hey Jerome,

Why can't I PM you? Shoot me a PM with your email.

Stephen

[Jerome W]

Hey Stephen,

It looks that you're no more a subscriber, that's why you can't pm me and I don't get your mail !
Just renew your subscription.
My email is jeromewanono@yahoo.fr !

Cheers,

[two dot]

I didn't know that I had expired.... I payaled my fee.

I also sent you an email.

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by two dot

I didn't know that I had expired.... I payaled my fee.

I also sent you an email.

Thanks Stephen,

Email reply sent !

[two dot]

Wow that was fast... I even got banner back.

[Formerly YB-2]

Mikey Fremer thinks the new Brinkman DD TT might be the best under $20K (though this thread seems to have morphed a bit). As a DD fan, I might be easilly persuaded that he is correct.