M Project speakers

[Frank750]

I know you've heard this before but there is something else going on and changing amplifiers, I don't believe, is the answer.
Your speakers are excellent, there's no way you should be getting the sound you're describing with the 160.8s driving them.

I know of what I speak. The country is littered with Audio Research, Pass, Krell and other amps, preamps and cables I went through because I wasn't getting the sound I should have been. You can keep chasing or figure out what's wrong.

With your speakers and electronics, the entire chain needs to be almost perfect or you're not going to be happy. Electricity, ICs, Speaker cable, power cables, everything. You can't cheap out or overlook anything at the level you're at or the great stuff you have will not perform at its best.

In my case, it was electrical problems. I wound up getting a Torus 90A panel to feed my room and a 4 year roller coaster ride finally came to an end. I would start with your electricity and what you're feeding your electronics and take nothing for granted.

My 2 cents.

[VT Skier]

For expensive solid state, I agree with previous posters: Constellation, Vitus, Soulution (7 Series) are all nice and a little warmer than dead neutral. Soulution being a little closer, at least to my ear.

For less expensive, Audionet and Hegel might work. You could also try a tube preamp, as many others do.

Or maybe the S7 would better suit your room. How does your S5 compare to the M Pro? Similar issues? If not, it's probably not the electricity, cables, etc.

Sometimes those anniversary or special editions are just different enough to not appeal to the very people who love the same manufacturer's usual lineup. I love the Dynaudio C4 and C2 but didn't care much for the Sapphire.

[TLi]

Originally Posted by MadFloyd

I was just about to post a thread asking for recommendations for an amplifier for my Magico M-Projects. I'm currently using Pass XA160.8's but they are too neutral for the M-Projects (which are also very neutral). I tried XA160.5's and they were too warm and slow. I was thinking about upgrading the XS-150 but Pass says they have the same sound signature as the .8 series. So I thought maybe Vitus but I have been told by an owner of Q7s that they are less warm than the Pass XS series. I also understand that Soulution is very neutral. I'm not sure what amps remain that might mate well with the Magico M's (which are tonally similar to the Q series). I do not like tubes or overly warm amps, but right now with the M's I have a very thin & bright midrange that is fatiguing. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be most appreciative. Thanks in advance.

I have ordered a pair of M Project after listened to them in the dealer office. M Project is not as warm as Q series and there is no problem to drive them with a warmer amp.

I use a pair of Xs150. They have a warmer sound than .5 and .8. They should match very well with M Project.

[S1chen]

Originally Posted by MadFloyd

I was just about to post a thread asking for recommendations for an amplifier for my Magico M-Projects. I'm currently using Pass XA160.8's but they are too neutral for the M-Projects (which are also very neutral). I tried XA160.5's and they were too warm and slow. I was thinking about upgrading the XS-150 but Pass says they have the same sound signature as the .8 series. So I thought maybe Vitus but I have been told by an owner of Q7s that they are less warm than the Pass XS series. I also understand that Soulution is very neutral. I'm not sure what amps remain that might mate well with the Magico M's (which are tonally similar to the Q series). I do not like tubes or overly warm amps, but right now with the M's I have a very thin & bright midrange that is fatiguing. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be most appreciative. Thanks in advance.

Can u share with us the rest of the chain in your system. This is surprise that u feel the mid to be thin sounding. To me amp is not the only link for a reviewing total balance speaker. The source n pre also play a big role.

[Bluemcintosh]

Originally Posted by MadFloyd

I was just about to post a thread asking for recommendations for an amplifier for my Magico M-Projects.

I'm currently using Pass XA160.8's but they are too neutral for the M-Projects (which are also very neutral). I tried XA160.5's and they were too warm and slow. I was thinking about upgrading the XS-150 but Pass says they have the same sound signature as the .8 series.

So I thought maybe Vitus but I have been told by an owner of Q7s that they are less warm than the Pass XS series. I also understand that Soulution is very neutral.

I'm not sure what amps remain that might mate well with the Magico M's (which are tonally similar to the Q series). I do not like tubes or overly warm amps, but right now with the M's I have a very thin & bright midrange that is fatiguing.

If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be most appreciative.

Thanks in advance.

Ian did you have a chance to hear the Tenor yet ?

[cmarin]

I've heard Constellation and Soulution on Q7s with excellent results. But then again, as someone suggested, the M and Q7s are highly transparent to the upsteam components. So the quality of the ancillary components including cables and power cords, should be considered.

[PlanarSpeakerFan]

Originally Posted by Frank750

I know you've heard this before but there is something else going on and changing amplifiers, I don't believe, is the answer.
Your speakers are excellent, there's no way you should be getting the sound you're describing with the 160.8s driving them.

I know of what I speak. The country is littered with Audio Research, Pass, Krell and other amps, preamps and cables I went through because I wasn't getting the sound I should have been. You can keep chasing or figure out what's wrong.

With your speakers and electronics, the entire chain needs to be almost perfect or you're not going to be happy. Electricity, ICs, Speaker cable, power cables, everything. You can't cheap out or overlook anything at the level you're at or the great stuff you have will not perform at its best.

In my case, it was electrical problems. I wound up getting a Torus 90A panel to feed my room and a 4 year roller coaster ride finally came to an end. I would start with your electricity and what you're feeding your electronics and take nothing for granted.

My 2 cents.

Nice post, Frank. I totally agree. The XA-160.8 should sound wonderful with the M-Project. They are terrific amps. It is true that they are not as warm as the XA-160.5 but they do provide a good amount of natural warmth without being overblown. The XS-150 should sound even better. I had a very similar problem and it turned out to be power line interference. I thought my components were to blame. When I added my power conditioner all of the edginess in the treble and midrange were eliminated.

Ken

[MadFloyd]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.

I do think the M's are great speakers. They are not as warm sounding as my S5's, but otherwise they outperform them in every way. They were a significant investment and a huge leap of faith for me, not to mention extremely heavy so I would like to try to make them work.

Even with the S5's my midrange has been a little delicate. Anything in the chain that would thin out the midrange in any way would be unwelcome. The only explanations I can come up with are:

1) My room being very open (no wall on the side of the left speaker) has a suckout in a frequency range that gives weight to the midrange.

2) I have an Equi=tech transformer providing balanced power to a dedicated 20 amp circuit for both amps but the amperage of the transformer is not high enough. I say this because the feeling is that when I turn up the volume the highs get more loud than the bass.

3) I'm just using too many lean sounding components for such lean sounding speakers.

My equipment:

Sources
Playback Designs MPD-5. A very warm sounding DAC, fed by a CAPS PC.
TW Acustic Raven One tt with Triplanar arm, Dynavector XV-1t cartridge, Pass Labs XP-25 phono stage.

Preamp
XP-30, Pass' warmest sounding preamp.

Amps
XA160.8

Cables
I have MIT and Transparent, MIT between source and pre, Transparent to amps, MIT speaker cables.

Shunyata Alpha zitron power cables throughout.

The speakers reflect any change in components and without subtlety. I tried Spectron amps (borrowed from my home theater) and got all kinds of weight, but the amps are not good sounding amps in the upper mids and treble and boy do the M's let you know! I tried XA160.5's and got beautiful mids (and I do mean beautiful) but also a ton of bloom and bass that was so slow and gooey you'd think the speakers were ported. Not a good match.

If I swap out the amp power cables (the Shunyata Alpha HC) for, say, Kubala Sosna Emotions, the midrange improves a lot, but piano still sounds thin (almost like I had bookshelf speakers).

So apart from my electrical being a potential culprit (as Frank suggests - and he could be right), I don't think I have anything truly sub-par in my chain. The quality of the sound is clean, it just lacks weight and as a result the midrange is thin and doesn't sound beautiful - it sounds bright.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.

I do think the M's are great speakers. They are not as warm sounding as my S5's, but otherwise they outperform them in every way. They were a significant investment and a huge leap of faith for me, not to mention extremely heavy so I would like to try to make them work.

Even with the S5's my midrange has been a little delicate. Anything in the chain that would thin out the midrange in any way would be unwelcome. The only explanations I can come up with are:

1) My room being very open (no wall on the side of the left speaker) has a suckout in a frequency range that gives weight to the midrange.

2) I have an Equi=tech transformer providing balanced power to a dedicated 20 amp circuit for both amps but the amperage of the transformer is not high enough. I say this because the feeling is that when I turn up the volume the highs get more loud than the bass.

3) I'm just using too many lean sounding components for such lean sounding speakers.

My equipment:

Sources
Playback Designs MPD-5. A very warm sounding DAC, fed by a CAPS PC.
TW Acustic Raven One tt with Triplanar arm, Dynavector XV-1t cartridge, Pass Labs XP-25 phono stage.

Preamp
XP-30, Pass' warmest sounding preamp.

Amps
XA160.8

Cables
I have MIT and Transparent, MIT between source and pre, Transparent to amps, MIT speaker cables.

Shunyata Alpha zitron power cables throughout.

The speakers reflect any change in components and without subtlety. I tried Spectron amps (borrowed from my home theater) and got all kinds of weight, but the amps are not good sounding amps in the upper mids and treble and boy do the M's let you know! I tried XA160.5's and got beautiful mids (and I do mean beautiful) but also a ton of bloom and bass that was so slow and gooey you'd think the speakers were ported. Not a good match.

If I swap out the amp power cables (the Shunyata Alpha HC) for, say, Kubala Sosna Emotions, the midrange improves a lot, but piano still sounds thin (almost like I had bookshelf speakers).

So apart from my electrical being a potential culprit (as Frank suggests - and he could be right), I don't think I have anything truly sub-par in my chain. The quality of the sound is clean, it just lacks weight and as a result the midrange is thin and doesn't sound beautiful - it sounds bright.

Hi, you have an astonishing system, and there are no reasons why you should not get the most natural true to life sound in terms of your components. I can only think of one reason and that is your room. Either you should experiment a lot more with speaker positioning, or you should add cushions / rugs etc to tweak the room. The speakers might simply not be right for your room! You have experimented with a lot of components and clearly you are not getting the results that you want. I am starting to think it is the way the speakers interact in your room.

Hope you sort the issue soon

Regards,
Douglas

[PlanarSpeakerFan]

Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.

I do think the M's are great speakers. They are not as warm sounding as my S5's, but otherwise they outperform them in every way. They were a significant investment and a huge leap of faith for me, not to mention extremely heavy so I would like to try to make them work.

Even with the S5's my midrange has been a little delicate. Anything in the chain that would thin out the midrange in any way would be unwelcome. The only explanations I can come up with are:

1) My room being very open (no wall on the side of the left speaker) has a suckout in a frequency range that gives weight to the midrange.

2) I have an Equi=tech transformer providing balanced power to a dedicated 20 amp circuit for both amps but the amperage of the transformer is not high enough. I say this because the feeling is that when I turn up the volume the highs get more loud than the bass.

3) I'm just using too many lean sounding components for such lean sounding speakers.

My equipment:

Sources
Playback Designs MPD-5. A very warm sounding DAC, fed by a CAPS PC.
TW Acustic Raven One tt with Triplanar arm, Dynavector XV-1t cartridge, Pass Labs XP-25 phono stage.

Preamp
XP-30, Pass' warmest sounding preamp.

Amps
XA160.8

Cables
I have MIT and Transparent, MIT between source and pre, Transparent to amps, MIT speaker cables.

Shunyata Alpha zitron power cables throughout.

The speakers reflect any change in components and without subtlety. I tried Spectron amps (borrowed from my home theater) and got all kinds of weight, but the amps are not good sounding amps in the upper mids and treble and boy do the M's let you know! I tried XA160.5's and got beautiful mids (and I do mean beautiful) but also a ton of bloom and bass that was so slow and gooey you'd think the speakers were ported. Not a good match.

If I swap out the amp power cables (the Shunyata Alpha HC) for, say, Kubala Sosna Emotions, the midrange improves a lot, but piano still sounds thin (almost like I had bookshelf speakers).

So apart from my electrical being a potential culprit (as Frank suggests - and he could be right), I don't think I have anything truly sub-par in my chain. The quality of the sound is clean, it just lacks weight and as a result the midrange is thin and doesn't sound beautiful - it sounds bright.

Thanks Ian for your detailed post. From what I am understanding, the M-Project is supremely neutral and transparent, even more so than your S5. These speakers are going to look upstream into your signal and power chain like a high powered microscope. They will produce exactly what is supplied to them to a fault.

The Playback Designs MPD-5, Pass XP-30 and Pass XA-160.8 should all be supplying a very natural warmth to your M-Projects. I owned the K-01, XP-30 and XA-100.8 and this is exactly what was supplied to my speakers. And the K-01 is less warm than the Playback Designs, in my opinion.

This brings us to your speaker cables, interconnects, power cables, power supply and grounding. I think you should focus on these areas, starting with power first and work your way out. I would not change any components until you have run through each item and verified that they are not the culprit.

You own some world-class speakers and components, so you need to get them working at 100%!

Best of luck,
Ken