No luck with McIntosh tube preamps for me

[JBT]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Well this is the second McIntosh tubed preamp I've had in my systems. A C2200 and now the C220. The C500P solid state actually had some very good synergy with the 2301's. Not this little guy... While the C500P sounded full bodied and well balanced tonally, the C220 has virtually no bass, lean upper mids, it sounds shrill and annoying.

Make that 2 tubed preamps from McIntosh I would never own. I had a very similar experience with the C2200 but at least it had more or less decent bass... This C220 pulls the whole tonal balance off kilter into the lean and fatiguing land, a place I avoid like the plague.

So much for the warmth of tubes and the gentle kind nature of the C220. I actually remember hearing something very similar but not quite as bad in David's system but I didn't even suspect it may have been the C220. As it stands right now, even vinyl is virtually unlistenable...

On the other hand I do hear that unmistakable tube spaciousness and three dimensionality, so a tubed preamp is certainly needed and wanted in my system. I should have kept my all tubed Lamm preamp, it would have been interesting to hear it with the 2301's.

A tube swap may go a long way to improving the sound of the C220 and I'd still like to hear what a C500T would sound like but I am going to be very cautious and would have to audition extensively to make sure I can live with a McIntosh tube preamp. No wonder guys outside of McIntosh social circles say that tubes sound like solid state and solid state like tubes when it comes to McIntosh preamps... After this second tubed preamp I am starting to agree...

McIntosh no longer makes it, but if you can find one give it a listen. Great Preamp. C200

Stereophile: McIntosh C200 preamplifier

Little surprised you didn't like the C2200 with the 2301s. Perhaps if you tried some different tubes you might have gotten a different result.

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by Alberto

Serge,

I am a bit surprised, but you have great "ears" and lots of experience so I won't argue with what you heard.

What I find surprising is that I've experienced (and I am currently experiencing) the opposite. I find the bass nice and round (especially now that I added two subs though), the mids just right (voices sound very natural) and the highs anything but shrill and annoying.

So what's going on here? It could be a number of things, I'd put the tubes at the top of the list. I've switched to Telefunkens I've ripped off form an old Fisher 400 I had and I've been listening to those for a good couple of years, the tubes that come with the C220 are noisy and well worth replacing. There is also synergy with the other components and - of course - the room AND OUR OWN EARS. Your amps, speakers (and ears) may be more resolving than mine and thus expose some inherent problems when used in conjunction with the C220.

It could also be a "bad" C220, or perhaps not well broken in. Or the cables you (and I use) I admit that did identify some shrillness when I experimented with relatively high-end (~$500) interconnects and speaker cables (I went back to my original 'home-made' speaker cables after trying several different brands.)

In any case, I don't doubt your evaluation and, frankly, while the C220 works very nicely with my setup, I am not sure I would use it with the 2301s.

One of the reasons I've stopped doing reviews (including my VeeViews video reviews) is that I realized it's rather pointless to review individual components since the rest of the system, the room, the source material and the room and our own ears ultimately have a compound effect that, in most cases, overwhelms the character of any one component - especially those with no moving parts such as pre and power amps.

Alberto (see, I still lurk around here )

P.S. I still enjoy following your (and other AAers experiences) very much.

Alberto,

I new you would react here and how nicely you did !
You're absolutely right : ultimately, we hear with our own ears, and they will be the only judges.
"Reviews" are "personal and subjective informations". No more. They are good to give us the will to listen to a component and they give us more insight in a particular product. But they are rather poor if they dictate us not to listen to a component we are interested in...

[gtubes]

Originally Posted by chessman

Alberto ... This is the sort of post that makes this forum so enjoyable - educational, wise, and above all civilized.

I can't agree more with this Chessman. And Alberto, you hit the nail on the head, thx for still hanging around here, Greg

[Alberto]

Originally Posted by mc602

I can't agree more with this Chessman. And Alberto, you hit the nail on the head, thx for still hanging around here, Greg

Thank you all for the nice comments. I can't believe you still remember me given my recent "disappearance" ... on the other hand I remember all you guys very fondly, so I guess it's not that surprising. This is the place I go to when I want to be among online friends who can discuss audio with insight, with and mutual respect. I almost never visit the other audio forums, but I regularly check up AA and keep the shortcut on my browser toolbar.

About the C220 – and reviews in general – one other thing worth mentioning is that the I've noticed the character of a system changes dramatically based on the volume at which is playing. Since I go for long listening sessions, I rarely push my system above 75dbs and my reviews and impressions are based on those listening levels. Some systems that sound anemic at low volumes may sound great at louder volumes. Some systems that sound great at low volume may sound fatiguing and shrill at higher volumes. This is one more - important - and often neglected variable in the difficult business of reviewing audio.

One thing is certain, when considering new components (especially high-end ones) you should all do what Serge does and arrange in-home auditions (at least for a week-end). Listen to your music, with your system and in your rooms at the levels you normally listen before making any decision.

Alberto

[Masterlu]

Hi Alberto

[MisterBritt]

Alberto, you have reached legendary status here. I actually knew of you initially from your video reviews on youtube. I only joined up here more recently. It's always a pleasure to view your videos and read your posts. Thanks.

[Ron-C]

When looking at preamp loading of MM cartridges in pf you will need to measure the capacitance of the table arm wiring, head shell and interconnects used first. Use a capacitance meter which should be in your audio tool kit. Add the combined capacitance of all these to the preamp's capacitance then you will know how close you are to the recommended loading of the cartridge you are using. Shure, AT, Stanton and others are sensitive to this. You may add pf capacitors across the leads if you need to add. You may also find that many cables are very high in capacitance which makes them useless for turntable leads.
C1000 does not switch the C1000t and C1000p preamp sections. Both sections are connected to your amps. C1000 controller only selects which one is unmuted. This is identical function as C500.

Thanks,

[Tonepub]

Ron's right, if you have the cart loaded wrong, even the best preamp will sound flat and lifeless....

Personally, I've had great luck with the 2300 and my 275, so I can't see why you wouldn't have good luck with the 2301's....

And for what it's worth, I tried a lot of different tubes in the 2300 I had in for review and I liked the stock tubes better overall. Some of the NOS tubes had a little more magic here or there, but the stock tubes seemed to be a better overall match. But those awesome EAT 12AX7's weren't out back then....

[j3brow]

Serge, since you are looking for a tube preamp, I think you should try to arrange a home demo of a McIntosh C2300 while you are at it, especially since your dealer seems to be so willing to help. It may be just the right balance you are looking for at half the expense of the C500 (since you posted the performance C500 wasn't worth the 12k admission price). I believe HArry Pearson's positive review of the C2300 was in conjunction with MC2301 amplifiers. Numerology would suggest the two are meant for each other I highly doubt you would find the 2300 lean.

Jeff, your praise of the EAT 12ax7 is again pushing me to order a pair.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by tonepub

If you want some big tube warmth, I'd try a cj art 2 or art 3.... The aesthetix Callisto signature is excellent too, but it gobbles tubes.

Jeff, I am not asking for or wanting some big tube warmth, I just don't want a lean and thin sounding tube preamp. My Lamm preamp was simply natural and well balanced tonally. Your suggestions are definitely something to audition though.