No luck with McIntosh tube preamps for me

[PHC1]

Well this is the second McIntosh tubed preamp I've had in my systems. A C2200 and now the C220. The C500P solid state actually had some very good synergy with the 2301's. Not this little guy... While the C500P sounded full bodied and well balanced tonally, the C220 has virtually no bass, lean upper mids, it sounds shrill and annoying.

Make that 2 tubed preamps from McIntosh I would never own. I had a very similar experience with the C2200 but at least it had more or less decent bass... This C220 pulls the whole tonal balance off kilter into the lean and fatiguing land, a place I avoid like the plague.

So much for the warmth of tubes and the gentle kind nature of the C220. I actually remember hearing something very similar but not quite as bad in David's system but I didn't even suspect it may have been the C220. As it stands right now, even vinyl is virtually unlistenable...

On the other hand I do hear that unmistakable tube spaciousness and three dimensionality, so a tubed preamp is certainly needed and wanted in my system. I should have kept my all tubed Lamm preamp, it would have been interesting to hear it with the 2301's.

A tube swap may go a long way to improving the sound of the C220 and I'd still like to hear what a C500T would sound like but I am going to be very cautious and would have to audition extensively to make sure I can live with a McIntosh tube preamp. No wonder guys outside of McIntosh social circles say that tubes sound like solid state and solid state like tubes when it comes to McIntosh preamps... After this second tubed preamp I am starting to agree...

[jdandy]

Serge.......I believe you will find the solid state C1000P to be the ticket. Try to get the opportunity to audition one with the MC2301's. The C1000P is startling real. If I had to choose between my two, the C1000T or the C1000P, I would keep the solid state version. There is nothing about its sound, control flexibility, and overall quality that I don't like. It offers amazing crystal clarity, ultra black silence, dynamics off the charts, neutral sonic signature, and it is musical beyond belief. Give one a try if you can arrange it.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Serge.......I believe you will find the solid state C1000P to be the ticket. Try to get the opportunity to audition one with the MC2301's. The C1000P is startling real. If I had to choose between my two, the C1000T or the C1000P, I would keep the solid state version. There is nothing about its sound, control flexibility, and overall quality that I don't like. It offers amazing crystal clarity, ultra black silence, dynamics off the charts, neutral sonic signature, and it is musical beyond belief. Give one a try if you can arrange it.

Dan, having spent about a week with the C500P with the 2301s and having owned the C500P back in the MC501 days, I agree with your assessment of the strengths of the McSolidState. Even the C46 if not the most resolving preamp in the world had wonderful warmth, forgiving, musical and engaging nature. The C500P raised the bar with more resolution, transparency and dynamics. While I am sure the C1000P would be great with the 2301s, I am not convinced the C1000 is actually a sonically better preamp over the C500, they just share so much internally... I also find very important to me qualities in any system with a synergistic tube preamp. Remember, I am the guy who ultimately preferred the $6k Lamm tubed preamp to an $18K Ayre mighty KX-R....

[jdandy]

Serge.......I understand, but the C500P is not the C1000P, and until you have the opportunity to audition one, I would not be so quick to discount the possibility of a great match with the 2301's.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by jdandy

Serge.......I understand, but the C500P is not the C1000P, and until you have the opportunity to audition one, I would not be so quick to discount the possibility of a great match with the 2301's.

I'll definitely give the C1000 a listen if the opportunity presents itself. If and I mean if, the C1000 is somehow superior to the C500 sonically, I'd be very pleasantly surprised and impressed as the C500 is already a very good preamp.

[vintage_tube]

When I read you were auditioning a C220 with the MC2301's, I said to myself, it won't last a day.

You're smart enough to now know what is needed Serge.

Bob

[PHC1]

One other thing about the C220 is that the MM phono stage at the fixed 65pF simply doesn't sound very good with the current AT440MLa cartridge I am using to spin vinyl with on the Technics 1200 table... The C500's adjustable range hit the sweetspot at 450 pF. I'll have to drop my EAR 324 phono stage in the system over the weekend.

[two dot]

Serge,

Where is the SME???

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by two dot

Serge,

Where is the SME???

I traded David my SME for his Technics SL1200.... Joking of course, it is awaiting to be setup in the 2 channel room. I am spinning vinyl on the Technics though and I am pretty impressed by this "budget table". Well, at least I was with the C500. I'll drop the EAR phono stage in tomorrow.

[Jerome W]

Serge,
I'm not surprised.
The C220 is an excellent preamp and far from sounding fatiguing in most systems. Alberto would be very surprised from your review !
Now it is true that higher end preamps both SS or tubes, will sound more refined, but don't forget the price of the 220. With a 275, it is a very good preamp for the price, but it has nothing to see with the 2301's...

But the 2301's are definitely in an other league. They deserve at least a C1000 in my opinion. And you won't be surprised to know that I second Dan's opinion about the 1000P. You can get a very clean one at about 11k. Around this price, you could probably get a Ref 5 also, and a very good Lamm too. I 'm sure that the C1000P won't be far from others in his price range.
From what I heard elsewhere, an ARC Anniversary Ref could probably beat it, but the price is not the same. Plus, there is a wonderful synergy between the 1000P and the 2301's. I am more and more convinced of the mixed option when it comes to amplification : tubes and SS, no matter in which stages, and you had that with your previous Lamm set up.
I listened last year to a C500P, and as the speakers and amps were not the same I have, I could not swear it, but it seems to me that the 1000P goes beyond the 500.
My bet is that if you try a 1000P, you will buy it without listening to something else.
Just be sure to listen to many different recordings. It is the most neutral preamp I ever heard and the tonal balance and the stereo image changes A LOT between recordings.
Plus you will have the ability to add a 1000T and play with tubes if you get bored !
No other pre on the market has this feature.
JM has a lot of fun with this. Depending on the recordings, he switches between the two.
I was tempted to buy one T module, but the synergy between the P and the 2301's is so high, I thought this could be like throwing my money by the window.
I would prefer to give it to my congregation who is building a new synagogue !