MV60SE vs LP66S

[pstrisik]

Originally Posted by Bugs762

I've read that the MV60 has the same output transformers as the Premier 11a. I assume that the Premier 11 has better overall parts quality.

Was the MV60 the same era? The Pr11 was about 1995 I think. Maybe a little earlier. I think that was their approach with the Premier line - parts quality. They stopped using that title though. Don't know why.

[Bugs762]

Originally Posted by pstrisik

Was the MV60 the same era? The Pr11 was about 1995 I think. Maybe a little earlier. I think that was their approach with the Premier line - parts quality. They stopped using that title though. Don't know why.

Agon Blue Book shows that the MV60 was introduced in 2001 and the MV60SE in 2003. A little more information here: Agon Blue Book shows that the MV60 was introduced in 2001 and the MV60SE in 2003. A little more information here -

Conrad-Johnson MV60 power amplifier Sam Tellig May 2003 | Stereophile.com

[pstrisik]

Originally Posted by Bugs762

Agon Blue Book shows that the MV60 was introduced in 2001 and the MV60SE in 2003. A little more information here: Agon Blue Book shows that the MV60 was introduced in 2001 and the MV60SE in 2003. A little more information here -

Conrad-Johnson MV60 power amplifier Sam Tellig May 2003 | Stereophile.com

Thanks for the link. Interesting that the MV60 replaced the Pr11A. They still came out with the Pr140 in 2003, so hadn't discontinued the Premier moniker for amps yet. Also interesting that they made the MV60 for EL34s originally, then made a version for 6550s. The 11A was made for 6550s, but they made an 11XS with EL34s!

I asked CJ about the XS conversion for my 11A and I believe it was Lew J. that replied and discouraged it: "EL34 vs. 6550 is a choice that has advocates on both sides. Personally, I was quite enamored of the sound of the EL34s operating in triode mode. A richer, smoother sound than was available from the GE 6550As that we used when these were new amps. When we switched to the Svetlana 6550C tubes I felt that those tubes offered all the desirable traits of the triode operated EL34s without the reduction in power (half the power) and reduced dynamics that went with it. The KT120s are even better."

and....... "Rather than moving from the Eleven A to Twelves with triode EL34s, I think you would do better to do a "C1" Teflon cap upgrade to your Eleven A. This upgrade costs $1500 plus shipping. I don't believe that the KT120 is warmer/smoother than EL34 - but roughly as warm and smooth with better dynamics and airier highs."

So, I am very interested in your take on the change to Teflon with the MV60SE (if you do it) since it is evidently so similar to the 11A. I would hate to do an upgrade and end up preferring the pre-upgrade sound!

[ronenash]

Peter,

In my experience the cj cap upgrade is an improvement in every way. I cannot see you being disappointed.

Ron

[Bugs762]

Originally Posted by pstrisik

Thanks for the link. Interesting that the MV60 replaced the Pr11A. They still came out with the Pr140 in 2003, so hadn't discontinued the Premier moniker for amps yet. Also interesting that they made the MV60 for EL34s originally, then made a version for 6550s. The 11A was made for 6550s, but they made an 11XS with EL34s!

I asked CJ about the XS conversion for my 11A and I believe it was Lew J. that replied and discouraged it: "EL34 vs. 6550 is a choice that has advocates on both sides. Personally, I was quite enamored of the sound of the EL34s operating in triode mode. A richer, smoother sound than was available from the GE 6550As that we used when these were new amps. When we switched to the Svetlana 6550C tubes I felt that those tubes offered all the desirable traits of the triode operated EL34s without the reduction in power (half the power) and reduced dynamics that went with it. The KT120s are even better."

and....... "Rather than moving from the Eleven A to Twelves with triode EL34s, I think you would do better to do a "C1" Teflon cap upgrade to your Eleven A. This upgrade costs $1500 plus shipping. I don't believe that the KT120 is warmer/smoother than EL34 - but roughly as warm and smooth with better dynamics and airier highs."

So, I am very interested in your take on the change to Teflon with the MV60SE (if you do it) since it is evidently so similar to the 11A. I would hate to do an upgrade and end up preferring the pre-upgrade sound!

I'll keep you posted. I should have the cash for the project over the next couple of months.

Doug

[pstrisik]

Originally Posted by ronenash

Peter,

In my experience the cj cap upgrade is an improvement in every way. I cannot see you being disappointed.

Ron

Ron,

I'm beginning to feel some confidence in that for the reason below. My biggest concern is about high end and perceived harshness. I have found some speakers, that have endless fans and little criticism (at least in the open), too harsh/fatiguing for my ears. I have learned that I have to listen and be the judge in the end (of course).

The thing that has increased my confidence a bit was changing out caps in my vintage AR2ax crossovers. I intially replaced the ancient xover package with modern ones generally used by some well regarded AR restorers. Speakers were great, no doubt. But I changed them out for ClarityCap ESA series and the difference was remarkable. The best description I can offer, in a word, is transparency. More music, less background, better imaging. I suspect the C1 upgrade would do that for the amp, but it is a very expensive experiment if it doesn't work for me - particularly going back to original (though, in that case, it would probably be more cost effective to sell the upgraded unit and go to Audiogon for an original replacement).

I'm kind of focused on low power single ended design at the moment (Dennis Had's new stuff), so nothing is pressing. It may be the "next step" with things running along well with the SE amp while the 11A gets sent off. We'll see.

Care to offer a more qualitative description of what you found different in the sound?

[pstrisik]

Originally Posted by Bugs762

I'll keep you posted. I should have the cash for the project over the next couple of months.

Doug

Please do! Thx.

[ronenash]

Originally Posted by pstrisik

Ron,

I'm beginning to feel some confidence in that for the reason below. My biggest concern is about high end and perceived harshness. I have found some speakers, that have endless fans and little criticism (at least in the open), too harsh/fatiguing for my ears. I have learned that I have to listen and be the judge in the end (of course).

The thing that has increased my confidence a bit was changing out caps in my vintage AR2ax crossovers. I intially replaced the ancient xover package with modern ones generally used by some well regarded AR restorers. Speakers were great, no doubt. But I changed them out for ClarityCap ESA series and the difference was remarkable. The best description I can offer, in a word, is transparency. More music, less background, better imaging. I suspect the C1 upgrade would do that for the amp, but it is a very expensive experiment if it doesn't work for me - particularly going back to original (though, in that case, it would probably be more cost effective to sell the upgraded unit and go to Audiogon for an original replacement).

I'm kind of focused on low power single ended design at the moment (Dennis Had's new stuff), so nothing is pressing. It may be the "next step" with things running along well with the SE amp while the 11A gets sent off. We'll see.

Care to offer a more qualitative description of what you found different in the sound?

The sound is characterized by more details, better harmonics, more air and space, lower noise floor. The one negative I can think of is the 600 hours break in time needed for those Teflon capacitors which means you will have to wait quite a while to enjoy them fully but IMO its worth it.

[pstrisik]

Originally Posted by ronenash

The sound is characterized by more details, better harmonics, more air and space, lower noise floor. The one negative I can think of is the 600 hours break in time needed for those Teflon capacitors which means you will have to wait quite a while to enjoy them fully but IMO its worth it.

Thanks Ron. I'm seriously considering now!

I've been aware of the break in issue. Plus, some say that more break in needs to happen if the amp has been idle for a while. I don't know how much idle time causes loss of break in, or how much recovery break in would be needed. But, if there is no downside in sound, the inconvenience would be worth it.

[ronenash]

Originally Posted by pstrisik

Thanks Ron. I'm seriously considering now!

I've been aware of the break in issue. Plus, some say that more break in needs to happen if the amp has been idle for a while. I don't know how much idle time causes loss of break in, or how much recovery break in would be needed. But, if there is no downside in sound, the inconvenience would be worth it.

I often travel for two week periods and when I get back it takes a few hours form the amps to be back to top performance. Its not too bad. They might be improving somewhat in the next couple of days but the changes are mostly very minor and usually go unnoticed. The first 600-1000 hours is the thing to worry about.
Following is a post I read about what the burn in process will be like. Most of it is done after 400 hours but the caps continue to improve to about 1000 hours.

I get more calls about products utilizing Teflon capacitors than any other type of capacitor. Teflon capacitors take a solid 400 hours to reach about 90% of their true potential and their true colors open up at the 600 hour mark. It has also been established that they will even continue to change, ever so slightly, up to 1200 hours. You may not notice these changes and I only mention it to give you an indication of the characteristics of Teflon.

During the break-in cycle of these capacitors, they will go through different stages. During the initial 150 hours, you will notice these capacitors will do a two steps forward, one step back routine. What you will notice is that one day you system may sound fine while the next day (after it's one step back) it will not sound as good as it did even the day before. This is the stage where the capacitors can actually sound broken. Don't be alarmed, it's simply the nature of Teflon.

What you will notice is a 2 dimensional sound. The bass may be uncontrolled, the midrange a bit foggy and a lack of air and extension. Absolutely no coherency.

After 150 hours, the capacitors start to stabilize. From this point onward, they will be more consistent in their progress. They will still only be at about 50% of their sonic potential but the one step back issue is gone. This stage will last to about the 200-250 hour mark. This is where they start to become more 'listenable' but you are till only half way there.

The bass should start getting better here and the highs a bit more extended but the midrange is not quite there yet.

Now that you have gone through the ugly stages and have reached the 300 hour mark, things are starting to come into focus. Teflon capacitors start coming into their own between 300 and 400 hours. You may still noticed a few quirks but they should be minimal at this point. You have have more control down below, the midrange is becoming more real and the upper end is starting to extend further. This is when I usually receive the phone calls telling me I was absolutely correct about what to expect.

One you reach the 400 hour mark, you are starting to reach sonic nirvana and it will not be long before you are experiencing the truest potential of Teflon capacitors. It's been a long road but you will probably find the journey well worth it. This is the point where the midrange magic is apparent. You should notice a sense of texture and realism that is uncanny. The bass is quick and firm and the highs extended with a great sense of air. You will now start realizing a wide, spacious presentation as well. At this point, I don't receive any phone calls at all as you will be too involved in your music to want to waste time talking to me.

After 400 hours........... Heaven.