Accuphase DG58 Necessity or Novelty

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by imprezap2

Do you really want to put an analog source through AD/DA conversion.

I currently do with the signal of my FM tuner and I also will with my new phono.
Use the highest professional quality ADs you can get with high sampling rates and top quality cables.

Originally Posted by imprezap2

Many high end CD players have excellent DA conversion (and S/N measurements), not sure that this is simular in the DSP's, otherwise an Oppo player might be a better partner for a DSP system.

I use DSP in the digital domain only. DA remains to be done by my high end CD player.

Originally Posted by imprezap2

Signal paths are getting much longer, more cable connections, more things that can go wrong.

Insert DSP with two digital cables into the system. That's all.

Originally Posted by imprezap2

if it really improves the overall listening experience

It does; try for yourself.

[nvp]

Originally Posted by imprezap2

Still a bit black magic for me all these DSP units (Trinnov, Accuphase DG series, etc.)
I understand that in most cases the room is the worst part of our setup, I am sure one of these DSP's can get results here (EQ, phase problems, etc.). But there are a few points :

- Do you really want to put an analog source through AD/DA conversion.
- Many high end CD players have excellent DA conversion (and S/N measurements), not sure that this is simular in the DSP's, otherwise an Oppo player might be a better partner for a DSP system.
- Signal paths are getting much longer, more cable connections, more things that can go wrong.

Not to stir things up, but I am interested in what other audioaficionado's think about it, if it really improves the overall listening experience, I might try it myself.

Olaf

Hi Olaf, since I am sure you are not the only one having the worries you have expressed above, I’ll try to give an explanation that hopefully will make sense to everyone. (If you are interested, we could arrange a meeting so you can listen to my system with and without the DG-48 unit. I live in A-dam, where do you live?)

After buying my first DG unit (4 years ago) I quickly realised that most audiophiles interpret in a very wrong way the fundamental audiophile principle saying that the music signal and its path should be kept as unaltered as possible. Of course, each component (e.g. player, pre, power amp, cables, speakers etc) adds its coloration to the music signals, and as such one has to exercise some caution if he/she is interested in high fidelity. In order to do this effectively, however, it is very important that one understands the relative magnitudes of the perturbations induced in the signal by each component in one's rig. Unfortunately this seems to be the main problem. That is, most people do not realise that the errors introduced in the signal by decent cables and DACs are insignificantly smaller than the errors induced in the signal by: 1) an amp that works too hard, 2) a clipping amp, 3) bad speaker placement, 4) the limitations of the speakers, and 5) the room. As such most audiophiles change cables instead of buying a proper amp for their speakers or in the hope of solving speaker placement issues, and at the same time dismiss from the start the use of any type of equalisation. (To me this is like buying top of the line winter tires for a car that has broken breaks and no ABS system.)

Most audiophiles have heard that the room routinely introduces variations in the frequency response of +10 and -10 dB (often more) at certain frequencies, but fail to realise what that really means. An artefact of 10 dB at some specific frequency means that the intensity of the signal has been increased (or decreased) 10 times at the respective frequency. Clearly, such huge anomalies can not be introduced by cable changes and/or A->D and D->A conversions (which most often introduce errors that are typically smaller than 1% of the intensity of the music signal). Consequently, I gladly introduce another pair of cables and an additional conversion if necessary (by introducing a room correction unit in my system) if this helps me correct anomalies in my signals that are 10 times larger than the signal itself. Further, it is also worth mentioning that the modern room correction systems also correct the speakers by attempting to make them time and phase coherent. This brings further benefits by significantly improving the sound stage and stereo image.

[imprezap2]

Hi Paul,

Not so far away from Amsterdam, Nootdorp. Would love to hear what a DG-48 is doing in a room.

Olaf

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by nvp

Hi Olaf, since I am sure you are not the only one having the worries you have expressed above, I’ll try to give an explanation that hopefully will make sense to everyone. (If you are interested, we could arrange a meeting so you can listen to my system with and without the DG-48 unit. I live in A-dam, where do you live?)

After buying my first DG unit (4 years ago) I quickly realised that most audiophiles interpret in a very wrong way the fundamental audiophile principle saying that the music signal and its path should be kept as unaltered as possible. Of course, each component (e.g. player, pre, power amp, cables, speakers etc) adds its coloration to the music signals, and as such one has to exercise some caution if he/she is interested in high fidelity. In order to do this effectively, however, it is very important that one understands the relative magnitudes of the perturbations induced in the signal by each component in one's rig. Unfortunately this seems to be the main problem. That is, most people do not realise that the errors introduced in the signal by decent cables and DACs are insignificantly smaller than the errors induced in the signal by: 1) an amp that works too hard, 2) a clipping amp, 3) bad speaker placement, 4) the limitations of the speakers, and 5) the room. As such most audiophiles change cables instead of buying a proper amp for their speakers or in the hope of solving speaker placement issues, and at the same time dismiss from the start the use of any type of equalisation. (To me this is like buying top of the line winter tires for a car that has broken breaks and no ABS system.)

Most audiophiles have heard that the room routinely introduces variations in the frequency response of +10 and -10 dB (often more) at certain frequencies, but fail to realise what that really means. An artefact of 10 dB at some specific frequency means that the intensity of the signal has been increased (or decreased) 10 times at the respective frequency. Clearly, such huge anomalies can not be introduced by cable changes and/or A->D and D->A conversions (which most often introduce errors that are typically smaller than 1% of the intensity of the music signal). Consequently, I gladly introduce another pair of cables and an additional conversion if necessary (by introducing a room correction unit in my system) if this helps me correct anomalies in my signals that are 10 times larger than the signal itself. Further, it is also worth mentioning that the modern room correction systems also correct the speakers by attempting to make them time and phase coherent. This brings further benefits by significantly improving the sound stage and stereo image.

Hi Paul,

+1

Optimize the system hardware, optimize the speaker placement and only then apply room correction.

Martin
__________________
since 2001 Tact RCS 2.0, replaced 2011 by DG-48, replaced 2014 by DG-58

[Mattia]

Optimize the system hardware, optimize the speaker placement and only then apply room correction.

And I would also add (obviously if possible) optimize room acoustic passively.


Anyway, in my case, passive and active equalization made much, much more tangible improvement than changing for examples power amplifiers, DACs, cables etc.

Plus, it really is the only change/improvement that I can clearly and 100% of the times tell if it's turned ON or OFF, even without direct-switch comparisons, even from one day to the next one (yes I had my girlfriend randomly turn on or off Dirac before I entered the audio room ) and with all type of source material.

So for me, the "importance" and "influence" scale would be: room acoustic passive & active, speakers & placement, electronics.

And a good balance between all those variables.

But it's only my opinion and probabily wrong

[audio bill]

Mattia - Since you proclaim that it's your opinion, you can't be wrong. Enjoy the tunes!

[Mattia]

Well I meant "wrong" in the sense that we do all we do to seek enjoyment, and that is not the same for everyone

I accept that one may enjoy his state-of-the-art equipment without equalization in a concrete cubic room. If he's happy, who am I to tell him otherwise? I am happy for him

[audio bill]

I was just joking, probably should have included a . I know what you meant, and we're also happy that you're happy!

[jdandy]

Group hug!

[nvp]

Originally Posted by imprezap2

Hi Paul,

Not so far away from Amsterdam, Nootdorp. Would love to hear what a DG-48 is doing in a room.

Olaf

Olaf, if you google for "Kosh Naranek Accuphase" you can find my (old) system page on a different forum. Please send me a PM there so we can get in contact to arrange a meeting. For me it would be best to meet somewhere in december (say after december 15) as currently we are doing some renovation work and my system is not operational.