C712 back from the Upgrade Company

[David]

Originally Posted by 80B

If the upgrade is truly significant, wouldn't McIntosh incorporate that into their product? It's already expensive, and the additional price probably would not deter many customer.

I'm not saying the upgrades are not effective or worth it - I'm happy for both David and Julian's good results. I'm also tempted to do it myself someday. The mystery seems that McIntosh doesn't have the upgraded components to begin with, given its premium market position and proven engineering excellence. A significant improvement in sound should also garner more passionate reviews. Then again, there inevitably would be somebody doing upgrades and/or tinkering no matter what - they do it with Porsche and other top-quality automobiles. So, if anyone wants to contradict me, I've beaten him to the punch!

I consider the upgrade in the category of a tweak rather than a huge transformation. The Macs sound so good to begin with how much improvement is realistically possible. On the other hand, how much do we spend around here on things like cables and power conditioners? The factory voices the equipment (superbly) according to their aesthetic and within a particular budget. As I understand it, the Upgrade Company employes boutique capacitors and resistors not readily and reliably available in mass quantities and uses careful hand soldering with high silver content solder not easily done at volume in a factory.

I will report back with a more detailed review when it is fully burned in, but I would say after more than 100 hours I hear a definite increase in resolution. I take back what I said earlier about the bass; when I first turned it on I didn't notice the "loudness" contour was turned up.

My reasoning in having it done is that I felt there was not a lot of risk since most of the customer reviews I have read have been very favorable. Also I did not have a lot to loose since in a worse case scenario the C712 could always be sold as an "SE" model to someone who knows the Upgrade Company and replace it with an original at a reasonable price.

The real fun will be to A/B it with a newer double balanced model if I can find a volunteer.

[Poobah]

I've been doing alot of reading this last week on different Modding Outfits.. and Imperticular what strike me as most interesting is the claim, that even the most expensive models from the most respected companies, while they might be engineered to a very high degree, the component parts they use can be bottom draw in certain area's. Sure different pieces will have a top of the line this or a top of the line that... but alot of the smaller bit's the parts they don't advertise about might be of the dollar store variety.

For the most part I can believe that... It's only makes sense that a company would like to make a large profit by building pieces to certain budgets, that sell for X markup. (X probably being a much larger markup then most of us would like to believe).

That doesn't mean I think XYZ's brand is junk.. And hopefully the more expensive the brand the more higher tier parts are utilized. But I can certainly believe alot of improvements can be made by a Mod outfit.. But then again the arguement can be made that sometimes the cheapest parts might do the job the best?

Not to mention the use of sound coating, and dampening, and other types of modifications that can take place beyond just the replacement of certain parts, or entire sections.

[AudioNut]

Originally Posted by 80B

This whole phenomenon of upgrading equipment like Mcintosh is a bit perplexing. Take Julian's MVP871 for instance. It's an MSRP $4,500 player, and the UC charges $1,000 for the upgrade.

As I reported in my original post regarding the upgrading of my MVP871, I bought the unit, "brand new in the box", for $2000 and spent another $1000 on the upgrade for a total expenditure of $3000.

I'm not sure that i would have performed the upgrade on the machine if I had to pay full new list price; but at 2K, I felt the investment was small enough that I could experiment - and the experiment turned out very, very well. As I stated, the upgraded MVP871 does sound extremely good.

I've never felt, nor have I said, that mods made a night and day difference, but, if done correctly, modifications can make certain pieces of gear sound considerably better - even McIntosh gear.

I started having stereo gear modified almost 25 years ago, with, believe it or not, a REVOX B-226 CD player.The mods consisted of upgraded caps etc in the main chassis, and the addition of an external power supply in a separate chassis. With that unit, I learned that mods could make already good equipment, better. (The Revox was actually "pretty good" for its day and the mods made it listenable, at a time when most CD players sounded anything but listenable.)

b226cdm.jpg

b226_2.jpg

[Victor]

Congrats on your upgraded preamp, I hope you get it fixed fast so you can fully enjoy it.

Originally Posted by David

Awhile back Victor from AK said that his MC252, after upgrade sounded like MC501's.

Your memory is close, I'll try and give a recap of my Upgrade Co experience:

I contacted David at the Upgrade Company and found that he was only about 3 hours from me and he had a local client that just had a MC252 amp modified that I could compare my MC501s to. So I decided to pay him a visit.

The MC252 is a 250 watt stereo amp and my MC501s are 500 watt monoblocks. Bill was the client who had the upgraded MC252 and Bill was kind enough to invite us into his home to do comparisons. I have compared the MC252 to MC501s in the past and I thought the MC501s were significantly better than the MC252 in imaging and separation and the MC501s were a little better in detail. In bill's system his upgraded MC252 did in fact sound better than my MC501s. Bill's upgraded MC252 did have a little better detail than my MC501s and Bill's MC252 did a better job at giving the instruments separation, the MC501s sounded a little blurred in comparison. The biggest difference was in the bass, Bill's MC252 had much better bass than my MC501s. In Bill's system my MC501s sounded a little dull with weak bass and Bill's upgraded MC252 was musically enjoyable and just sucked you into the music.

After the comparisons at Bill house and spending the day with David I decided to leave him my McIntosh MC501 amps, MS750 music server and MDA1000 DAC to upgrade.

I had my stuff modified over 2 years ago and my thoughts after 2 years is:

The upgraded MC501s were a small improvement over stock.

I have not found a stock MDA1000 to compare to my upgraded MDA1000.

The upgraded MS750 was a pretty big improvement over stock.

Dave's specialty is upgrading disc players and that is where I heard the most improvement. If I had to do it again, I would get the MS750 upgraded and leave the MDA1000 and MC501s stock.

[David]

Originally Posted by Victor

Congrats on your upgraded preamp, I hope you get it fixed fast so you can fully enjoy it.

Your memory is close, I'll try and give a recap of my Upgrade Co experience:

I contacted David at the Upgrade Company and found that he was only about 3 hours from me and he had a local client that just had a MC252 amp modified that I could compare my MC501s to. So I decided to pay him a visit.

The MC252 is a 250 watt stereo amp and my MC501s are 500 watt monoblocks. Bill was the client who had the upgraded MC252 and Bill was kind enough to invite us into his home to do comparisons. I have compared the MC252 to MC501s in the past and I thought the MC501s were significantly better than the MC252 in imaging and separation and the MC501s were a little better in detail. In bill's system his upgraded MC252 did in fact sound better than my MC501s. Bill's upgraded MC252 did have a little better detail than my MC501s and Bill's MC252 did a better job at giving the instruments separation, the MC501s sounded a little blurred in comparison. The biggest difference was in the bass, Bill's MC252 had much better bass than my MC501s. In Bill's system my MC501s sounded a little dull with weak bass and Bill's upgraded MC252 was musically enjoyable and just sucked you into the music.

After the comparisons at Bill house and spending the day with David I decided to leave him my McIntosh MC501 amps, MS750 music server and MDA1000 DAC to upgrade.

I had my stuff modified over 2 years ago and my thoughts after 2 years is:

The upgraded MC501s were a small improvement over stock.

I have not found a stock MDA1000 to compare to my upgraded MDA1000.

The upgraded MS750 was a pretty big improvement over stock.

Dave's specialty is upgrading disc players and that is where I heard the most improvement. If I had to do it again, I would get the MS750 upgraded and leave the MDA1000 and MC501s stock.

Good to get your input Victor. Dave says on his website that the most benefit gained from his upgrades is on players first, followed by pre-amps, then amps. So far, after about 120 hours, I hear definite improvements, but the sound has not stabilized. At times dramatic improvement, more vividness, resolution, I notice details in the music not noticed before etc. I will wait a couple of weeks more before giving a full report.

[Gordon]

Victor just to clarify, are you saying the modded MDA is better than a non modded piece or you haven't been able to compare the two? I'm unsure of your meaning.

Gordon

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Victor just to clarify, are you saying the modded MDA is better than a non modded piece or you haven't been able to compare the two? I'm unsure of your meaning.

Gordon

I have not compaired my modded MDA1000 to another MDA1000.

I did compare my modded MDA1000 to a MCD500 (used as a DAC only). In that comparison my MDA1000 sounded slightly better than the MCD500 with the MDA1000 having a slightly more open sound with a slightly better soundstage. Yes, the difference was slight.

As I said, I would not recommend having a MDA1000 modded.

[David]

Originally Posted by Victor

. . . he had a local client that just had a MC252 amp modified that I could compare my MC501s to. So I decided to pay him a visit.

The MC252 is a 250 watt stereo amp and my MC501s are 500 watt monoblocks. Bill was the client who had the upgraded MC252 and Bill was kind enough to invite us into his home to do comparisons. I have compared the MC252 to MC501s in the past and I thought the MC501s were significantly better than the MC252 in imaging and separation and the MC501s were a little better in detail. In bill's system his upgraded MC252 did in fact sound better than my MC501s. Bill's upgraded MC252 did have a little better detail than my MC501s and Bill's MC252 did a better job at giving the instruments separation, the MC501s sounded a little blurred in comparison. The biggest difference was in the bass, Bill's MC252 had much better bass than my MC501s. In Bill's system my MC501s sounded a little dull with weak bass and Bill's upgraded MC252 was musically enjoyable and just sucked you into the music.
. . . . .
The upgraded MC501s were a small improvement over stock.

I have not found a stock MDA1000 to compare to my upgraded MDA1000.

The upgraded MS750 was a pretty big improvement over stock.

[I would] leave the MDA1000 and MC501s stock.

Victor, as I understand it you would describe the upgraded 252 as superior to the 501's in the system you heard in Michigan, but in your system the additional improvement in the 501's was small. I take it you would recommend the upgrade on the 252 since it seemed to beat the 501's. Is this correct? Do you have reservations about upgrading the 252?

[Victor]

Originally Posted by David

Victor, as I understand it you would describe the upgraded 252 as superior to the 501's in the system you heard in Michigan, but in your system the additional improvement in the 501's was small. I take it you would recommend the upgrade on the 252 since it seemed to beat the 501's. Is this correct? Do you have reservations about upgrading the 252?

Yes that is an interesting point. The system in Michigan sounded much better with the upgraded MC252 than with my MC501s. When I compaired my upgraded MC501s with stock MC501s I thought the upgraded MC501s sounded a little better but it was not a big improvement.

I ask myself why this would be. It's possible that they spent much more time upgrading that MC252 to specifically match the system it was being used in. Most of the Upgrade Co upgrades have to do with RFI/EMI interference, it's possible there was alot of RFI/EMI interference in that area so the upgrades made a bigger improvement with the equipment in that area. I'm not sure why the upgrade seemed to make more of an improvement with the MC252 than with my MC501s.

It's a tough call, but I would have reservations about having them upgrade any amp. You could send them a CD/DVD player for an upgrade then look inside to see what was done on the upgrade then duplicate some of that stuff in there yourself with your amp. I do like some of the upgrades done, it make alot of sense to try to shield the internal electronics of the equipment but I would prefer to keep the boards stock with stock caps in there and no soldering done on the boards. I bet they would do a "half" upgrade for you, just ask for no soldering to be done in the unit and no caps changed, this should cut the cost of the upgrade at least in half.

[US Blues]

Thank you guys for an very interesting thread. I use a C 15 pre (which replaced the C 712) and an MC252, so we're in essence discussing my system.

David- I will be curious to read your review once the upgraded unit settles in. I have long suspected there is ample room for improvement in the C 15, and an upgrade might be the most realistic path for my budget, and the unit has all the flexibility I require.

Victor- having heard the 501's often in a friends system, I believe the MC252 has more "room" for improvement than the 501's, as your experience bears out. Thanks for chiming in, I remember your original review of the upgraded 252, and it floats into my mind on occasion.