Vinyl Newbie In Need Of Enlightenment... Is this it?

[Whart]

I just read through this thread and have the following observations:
1.All of you are to be commended for the time and thought you put into to helping Esteban, just as he should be applauded for trying to work through the mystery of vinyl playback as a first-timer.
2. As a few of you have pointed out, many of us grew up with the medium, so some of the more painful aspects of vinyl playback are a given- knowing that it's hardly 'plug and play' and that sonic quality can vary considerably, along with noise and overall quality, not just from disc to disc, but from particular examples of the same disc, depending on pressing and condition.
3. Having grown up with vinyl, we also learned through its renaissance. I do not know what most people here started with as a turntable, but at least for older members, I would guess it was a pretty basic table, and expectations were generally pretty low- vinyl was a mainstream medium, not a 'high-end' thing until CD threatened to kill it. Then things started to get serious. (Yes, there were a few 'high end'turntables before 1983, but not like there are today). As a result, the effective price of getting serious performance from vinyl went up as it became more of a niche medium. Ditto on arms and cartridges. While I'm sure that a $1,000 turntable package probably delivers decent bang for the buck, it is not going to reflect the real strengths of vinyl as a playback medium. And you are right, Estaban, you will have to spend some money to outperform your digital rig. From my perspective, having invested heavily in vinyl as a playback medium, i have exactly the opposite perspective- for me to get comparable playback quality via a digital medium, i would have to invest a fortune in digital equipment, leaving aside the investment in the 'software' itself.
4. Alot of new pressings suck. That includes 200 gram pressings, and audiophile-labelled pressings. At the same time, I have records from the 50's-70's that were run of the mill production, nothing fancy, that sound absolutely spectacular.
5. Some surface noise, and the occasional pop and tick is a way of life, as is a little bit of neurosis about settings and set-up. But there is glorious, very lifelike stuff that can be pulled from those grooves.
6. My recommendation, in answer to your question, is that if you want to upgrade your vinyl playback experience, in particular the phono preamp, buy a high quality one used. Ditto, perhaps, on even the turntable. (A good recent VPI or something might not cost an arm and a leg, and will probably allow you to retrieve more and get the bass, openness and quiet, along with a sense of energy, that may be missing from a pre=packaged entry level rig). FWIW, i owned a Well-Termpered Turntable for years which was not terribly expensive, and did not do everything well, but gave me more than enough of the quality I needed in a very good vinyl only system. Although that table is dated in some respects, it is still respected for what it does musically. I'm not raising brand names because of any preference for any of them, but instead to tell you that there are many, many good options on the used market.
7. Get somebody really competent to help you with set-up. I've been doing vinyl since I could first hold a tone arm, call that 1964 or so, and I still get help from professionals.
8. Buy a good cartridge. It doesn't have to be the best of breed. But it will make a huge difference.

[howiebrou]

Originally Posted by Whart

I just read through this thread and have the following observations:
1.All of you are to be commended for the time and thought you put into to helping Esteban, just as he should be applauded for trying to work through the mystery of vinyl playback as a first-timer.
2. As a few of you have pointed out, many of us grew up with the medium, so some of the more painful aspects of vinyl playback are a given- knowing that it's hardly 'plug and play' and that sonic quality can vary considerably, along with noise and overall quality, not just from disc to disc, but from particular examples of the same disc, depending on pressing and condition.
3. Having grown up with vinyl, we also learned through its renaissance. I do not know what most people here started with as a turntable, but at least for older members, I would guess it was a pretty basic table, and expectations were generally pretty low- vinyl was a mainstream medium, not a 'high-end' thing until CD threatened to kill it. Then things started to get serious. (Yes, there were a few 'high end'turntables before 1983, but not like there are today). As a result, the effective price of getting serious performance from vinyl went up as it became more of a niche medium. Ditto on arms and cartridges. While I'm sure that a $1,000 turntable package probably delivers decent bang for the buck, it is not going to reflect the real strengths of vinyl as a playback medium. And you are right, Estaban, you will have to spend some money to outperform your digital rig. From my perspective, having invested heavily in vinyl as a playback medium, i have exactly the opposite perspective- for me to get comparable playback quality via a digital medium, i would have to invest a fortune in digital equipment, leaving aside the investment in the 'software' itself.
4. Alot of new pressings suck. That includes 200 gram pressings, and audiophile-labelled pressings. At the same time, I have records from the 50's-70's that were run of the mill production, nothing fancy, that sound absolutely spectacular.
5. Some surface noise, and the occasional pop and tick is a way of life, as is a little bit of neurosis about settings and set-up. But there is glorious, very lifelike stuff that can be pulled from those grooves.
6. My recommendation, in answer to your question, is that if you want to upgrade your vinyl playback experience, in particular the phono preamp, buy a high quality one used. Ditto, perhaps, on even the turntable. (A good recent VPI or something might not cost an arm and a leg, and will probably allow you to retrieve more and get the bass, openness and quiet, along with a sense of energy, that may be missing from a pre=packaged entry level rig). FWIW, i owned a Well-Termpered Turntable for years which was not terribly expensive, and did not do everything well, but gave me more than enough of the quality I needed in a very good vinyl only system. Although that table is dated in some respects, it is still respected for what it does musically. I'm not raising brand names because of any preference for any of them, but instead to tell you that there are many, many good options on the used market.
7. Get somebody really competent to help you with set-up. I've been doing vinyl since I could first hold a tone arm, call that 1964 or so, and I still get help from professionals.
8. Buy a good cartridge. It doesn't have to be the best of breed. But it will make a huge difference.

[ehoove]

Originally Posted by esteban

Anybody else would like to comment on my latest post? Would love to get more feedback on this.

I use the M/S Phonomena I with the separate battery pack, and there is a difference when powered by batteries. Less noise, even though the A/C powered Phonomena I is a very quiet unit in its own right. I have owned both, and would recommend either. However the dip switches being on the inside are a PITA, which the Phonomena II ($599) solves by moving them to the outside on the back. The Phonomena Nova around $500 more adds the battery pack which was an accessory on the Phonomena I at around $400 IIRC.
It is a true bang for the buck phono pre-amp used if you can find one, and even new its a great priced unit, more than worth the money. Flexible, with great sonics!
Regards,
Jim

[esteban]

Originally Posted by Whart

I just read through this thread and have the following observations:
1.All of you are to be commended for the time and thought you put into to helping Esteban, just as he should be applauded for trying to work through the mystery of vinyl playback as a first-timer.
2. As a few of you have pointed out, many of us grew up with the medium, so some of the more painful aspects of vinyl playback are a given- knowing that it's hardly 'plug and play' and that sonic quality can vary considerably, along with noise and overall quality, not just from disc to disc, but from particular examples of the same disc, depending on pressing and condition.
3. Having grown up with vinyl, we also learned through its renaissance. I do not know what most people here started with as a turntable, but at least for older members, I would guess it was a pretty basic table, and expectations were generally pretty low- vinyl was a mainstream medium, not a 'high-end' thing until CD threatened to kill it. Then things started to get serious. (Yes, there were a few 'high end'turntables before 1983, but not like there are today). As a result, the effective price of getting serious performance from vinyl went up as it became more of a niche medium. Ditto on arms and cartridges. While I'm sure that a $1,000 turntable package probably delivers decent bang for the buck, it is not going to reflect the real strengths of vinyl as a playback medium. And you are right, Estaban, you will have to spend some money to outperform your digital rig. From my perspective, having invested heavily in vinyl as a playback medium, i have exactly the opposite perspective- for me to get comparable playback quality via a digital medium, i would have to invest a fortune in digital equipment, leaving aside the investment in the 'software' itself.
4. Alot of new pressings suck. That includes 200 gram pressings, and audiophile-labelled pressings. At the same time, I have records from the 50's-70's that were run of the mill production, nothing fancy, that sound absolutely spectacular.
5. Some surface noise, and the occasional pop and tick is a way of life, as is a little bit of neurosis about settings and set-up. But there is glorious, very lifelike stuff that can be pulled from those grooves.
6. My recommendation, in answer to your question, is that if you want to upgrade your vinyl playback experience, in particular the phono preamp, buy a high quality one used. Ditto, perhaps, on even the turntable. (A good recent VPI or something might not cost an arm and a leg, and will probably allow you to retrieve more and get the bass, openness and quiet, along with a sense of energy, that may be missing from a pre=packaged entry level rig). FWIW, i owned a Well-Termpered Turntable for years which was not terribly expensive, and did not do everything well, but gave me more than enough of the quality I needed in a very good vinyl only system. Although that table is dated in some respects, it is still respected for what it does musically. I'm not raising brand names because of any preference for any of them, but instead to tell you that there are many, many good options on the used market.
7. Get somebody really competent to help you with set-up. I've been doing vinyl since I could first hold a tone arm, call that 1964 or so, and I still get help from professionals.
8. Buy a good cartridge. It doesn't have to be the best of breed. But it will make a huge difference.

Whart, thank you very much for the kind words and the eloquent feedback. For whatever reason, I just saw your comment today. As has been said many times throughout these pages, it has been a long and interesting journey indeed, with the usual twists and turns, some for the worse, and some definitely for the best. Case in point: the old records I was given by my friend (see my previous post) have positively astounded me. They sound incredible and seem to be in great shape (the previous owner might even have washed and cleaned them, from the looks of it). I still have not received all 2,000 albums, as described previosuly, but if the ones I do have are any indication, I am in for a treat!

My only problem is some sibilance, shrillness and inner-groove distortion. Still can't get around those issues, even though they have subsided slightly since I started this thread.

It also looks like I have the chance to get my hands on a brand new Dynavector 10X5 for a great price, and the seller even offered to set-it up and install it for me. How would you compare it to the Sumiko BP2, which does not seem to get much love around here? I actually have been trying to make the switch to a high quality MM such as the Ortofon 2M Black, instead of an entry-level high-output MC, but from what I understand the Dynavector is well respected and highly regarded and, again, I can get it for a great price. Anybody have any experience with this cartridge? As usual, your feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks again, to all of you, for being a part of this thread and contributing your insight and experience.

[Whart]

Esteban: I can't comment on the comparative merits of those cartridges because I haven't used or heard them. Just know this: that even with very high-end cartridges, results will vary considerably depending on arm; that it's all of piece, the turntable, tone arm, cartridge and phono stage, so it is hard to say whether a better cartridge in an average arm will outshine the converse; and your persistence in working through this will pay off.
Back in the day, 'cheap' good cartridges were Grado Signatures- moving magnet, not moving coil. Dunno where that fits into today's heirarchy. FWIW, the cartridge i've been using for the last couple years is less analytical, but makes music sound more natural to my ears, in my system. On the other hand, others here had exactly the opposite experience using that cartridge (an Airtight PC 1).
Do not underestimate the influence of the table- the saying that it is quiet and turns at speed is 'all' a turntable needs to do is true, in theory. But, you have no idea what silence is until you hear a turntable disappear. That 'sound' you associate with record replay is the turntable in many instances- i'm not talking about motor noise, rumble or obvious speed variations, but instead something more subtle that is only evident when you no longer hear it. Dead silence and depth.
Ditto on tonearms. I switched from a very good conventional arm to an air bearing linear tracker a few years ago. The air pump is a giant pain in the ass. The arm creates a remarkable sense of spaciousness and non-mechanical sounding delivery. Not suggesting you go this route, just saying it all makes a difference. I gather the newer VPI 'Classic' is a great table and comes with an arm. There are a variety of good cartridges- the Dynavector may be one, i don't know- that would be suitable and musical. Then, phono stage- again, will make a huge difference. I went from a highly regarded one (Manley Steelhead) using tweaked out NOS tubes to an oddball one (Allnic H3000) that is even more esoteric, and the difference was dramatic. I think EAR has a new one in the $2600 range- Myles Astor mentioned it somewhere- that is probably worth listening to. (Tim de P, who designed it is famous for all sorts of studio gear and his older phono stages have musical beauty, even though i gather they are a bit on the euphonic side). And there are a couple others that are similarly priced- all probably too new to find used, but if you keep your eyes open and are patient, you could find one.
May not be your cup of tea, musically, but Janis Ian 'Between the Lines' CBS 1975 is just a great example of a 'standard' record that sounds fabulous. I just bought a sealed copy from 1975 because my other copy has seen alot of play. What a good record in every respect.
PS. Can't remember if you said you have a record cleaning machine, but it is essential. I hate driving with a dirty windshield. It's the same thing. VPI 16.5 is your basic machine, will bust your ears using it, sounds like a cheap vacuum cleaner- and you have to keep the brushes and vaccum tube clean. But it will do the job. I'm still using mine and it will not die after more than 20 years! (I wish it would, so i could buy a new quiet one).