Cremona M Room Placement

[junker]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

In a perfectly symmetrical room with perfect positioning, that might do it. Anything else, not so much.

Lasers are for tag

With regards to toe-in or tilt-back? My room isn't symmetrical that is why I also use the laser to adjust toe-in - to reduce reflected sound vs. direct sound.

IMO there is no better method to adjust toe-in equally. Then, just adjust equally, listen, and iterate until you are happy. Speaker optimization is definitely fun, and sometimes perplexing! By eye there is a problem from parallax since we have a dominant and recessive eye. Sometimes when I thought they were equally visually I could hear a L/R imbalanced and when checked I actually had them a bit off.

Metaphacts is definitely right about the way to adjust spikes mentioned earlier in the thread... I try to start with all spikes as low as possible, and only try to raise the front of the speakers. Mine only have one rear though, so I don't have worry about floor irregularities.

[junker]

This is how Vandersteen suggests doing it with their speakers by hand... Obviously this would be different with your specific speakers.

The Vandersteen's really need to be aligned equally for their phase and time to be coherent and symmetrical to get that "planar-type" effect. When I asked Richard V., he suggested doing one according to the chart, and then using a laser to match on the second.

Anyway, good luck with speaker optimization! Probably no better upgrade IMO.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by junker

With regards to toe-in or tilt-back? My room isn't symmetrical that is why I also use the laser to adjust toe-in - to reduce reflected sound vs. direct sound.

IMO there is no better method to adjust toe-in. Even by eye there is a problem from parallax since we have a dominant and recessive eye. Works for general construction and surveyors.

P.S.: And definitely in agreement with the way to adjust spikes mentioned earlier in the thread... I try to start with all spikes as low as possible, and only try to raise the front of the speakers.

First, adjusting roe in/rake by laser is in fact doing it by eye. Better way? Easy. Do it by listening and aligning the speakers acoustically. Takes into account everything in the room. Doing it by eye does not.

For Cremona, raising the fronts is the correct method. For some other speakers it can be the opposite. It is dependent on the overall physical wave launch alignment of the given speaker and where it is in the room. For instance, with the wave guide on the Sf Venere tweeters, the speakers tend to rake very slightly forward instead of back.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by junker

This is how Vandersteen suggests doing it with their speakers by hand... Obviously this would be different with your specific speakers.

The Vandersteen's really need to be aligned equally for their phase and time to be coherent and symmetrical to get that "planar-type" effect. When I asked Richard V., he suggested doing one according to the chart, and then using a laser to match on the second.

Anyway, good luck with speaker optimization! Probably no better upgrade IMO.

Again, this does not take into account the effect of the room and positioning on proper toe/rake. It could get you close but highly unlikely to be precisely correct. Changing speaker manufacturers doesn't change that. Physics doesn't change based on logo.

x1000 on speaker optimization!

[aqualung]

Originally Posted by junker

Sure. When you use a laser pointer on top of the speaker you aiming the top of the speaker but you want to aim (tweeter + midrange) / 2.

So what I did was to sit in my recliner and mark ear position with painters tape. Then you would want to adjust tilt so that the laser hits at your ear position + the distance you have between midway between your tweeter and midrange to the top of the speaker.

So for example say your ear position is 38" and your speakers have 12" from the speaker top to the drivers then adjust the red laser dot to 50", and you can pre-mark this with another piece of blue painters tape.

If you do it this way then you should be right on the money.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense. I could draw a diagram or something if that helps.

Yes, it does makes sense. Thanks. I am going to try this keeping in mind Bill's advice about aligning the speakers acoustically. The laser will get me closer than just using my eyes and then I will use my ears to fine tune and optimize.

I have a made a bigger impact to my sound with small adjustments to speaker postioning than I have with cable changes and tube rolling. Least expensive tweak you can do IMO.

[aqualung]

Originally Posted by junker

This is how Vandersteen suggests doing it with their speakers by hand... Obviously this would be different with your specific speakers.

The Vandersteen's really need to be aligned equally for their phase and time to be coherent and symmetrical to get that "planar-type" effect. When I asked Richard V., he suggested doing one according to the chart, and then using a laser to match on the second.

Anyway, good luck with speaker optimization! Probably no better upgrade IMO.

Thanks junker. This is the kind of instruction I would have liked to have seen in the Cremona manual.

[Rick U]

I just fine tuned my toe in with lasers. Great tool for aiming accuracy and insuring the speakers are symmetrical.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Rick U

I just fine tuned my toe in with lasers. Great tool for aiming accuracy and insuring the speakers are symmetrical.

How's your rake?

[Rick U]

I've had the speakers all the way down and now all the way up. They sound better all the way down. I'm going to leave the rear spikes where they are and test them by lowering the front of the speaker 1/4 turn at a time. My speakers are not flat on top so using a laser won't help me aim the rake.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Rick U

I've had the speakers all the way down and now all the way up. They sound better all the way down. I'm going to leave the rear spikes where they are and test them by lowering the front of the speaker 1/4 turn at a time. My speakers are not flat on top so using a laser won't help me aim the rake.

Neither extreme will be correct. I assume by all the way up, you mean front spikes fully extended and rear spikes all the way in. If so lower away

As you lower and it gets better you'll want to be more precise than 1/4 turn. Should also revisit toe to finish it off as rake is finalized.