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  #11  
Old 04-10-2009, 11:32 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Well, since I am not obligated to buy the $28k worth of Transparent cables you can count on my unbiased review.
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  #12  
Old 04-11-2009, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 2uberoller View Post
Whoa, thanks for taking it easy on me, I thought I was going to get a beating
You are & here it comes

Remember the analogy about a chain being as strong as the weakest link. I have found the following to be true in all the systems I have owned & built for others.

When an upgrade is put in "such as cables" and no difference is heard it is usually due to the fact that the benefits of said cables are being lost else where in the system; hence the weakest link. For example if your pre-amp is not able to pass along or resolve the improved imaging, depth, air etc. then the gains are negated.

It relates back to synergy, everything has to gel together. I have consistantly found everything in the audio chain including the room has a sonic signature or impact on the final product, music reproduction.

Some for the better, some just different, some worse. An even better example that makes this easier to understand would be plumbing. Think of your audio system as a maze of 1" tubing passing water under a consistant pressure. If you just put a 2" pipe on the last ten feet (symbolizing speaker cables) do you think the water would flow any faster?

I hope this helps a bit. Cables really do matter!
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Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
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  #13  
Old 04-11-2009, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesuvius View Post
For $28k, I could probably get at least 12 Diana Krall look alikes to give me lap dances all night, and still use some WW cables with change to spare...

You sure its all "lap dances" you are going for?
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  #14  
Old 04-11-2009, 12:35 AM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterlu View Post
You are & here it comes

Remember the analogy about a chain being as strong as the weakest link. I have found the following to be true in all the systems I have owned & built for others.

When an upgrade is put in "such as cables" and no difference is heard it is usually due to the fact that the benefits of said cables are being lost else where in the system; hence the weakest link. For example if your pre-amp is not able to pass along or resolve the improved imaging, depth, air etc. then the gains are negated.

It relates back to synergy, everything has to gel together. I have consistantly found everything in the audio chain including the room has a sonic signature or impact on the final product, music reproduction.

Some for the better, some just different, some worse. An even better example that makes this easier to understand would be plumbing. Think of your audio system as a maze of 1" tubing passing water under a consistant pressure. If you just put a 2" pipe on the last ten feet (symbolizing speaker cables) do you think the water would flow any faster?

I hope this helps a bit. Cables really do matter!
+1 Ivan.

I've been to 2ube's house. I helped him optimize his setup. He knows he's got some work to do before he can reap benefits of cables. The acoustics in his otherwise great room need some serious help. Only then can he even begin to discover what some cables can bring to the table. I think he just wanted to stir the pot a little tonight.
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  #15  
Old 04-11-2009, 01:10 AM
dpgstereo dpgstereo is offline
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Ivan, I for one am not questioning your knowledge and experience with hi-end audio, I have personally experienced your theater. As I have said before, the best I have heard.
But, a scientific approach to speaker wire might suggest looking at matching ohms, checking resistance. Larger guage wire, as we know, has less resistance to a point. To large and you can introduce resistance back into connection. I was taught that a signal/current runs on the outside of a wire. For example if you were to measure the resistance of two 8 gauge insulated wires, given the same type of wire, the wire with smaller and more strains should have less resistance than the wire with larger and fewer strains. Assuming you are using a quality grade of wire, a given size for a given length (check it with a simple ohms meter), isn't that as good as it gets?
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  #16  
Old 04-11-2009, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpgstereo View Post
Ivan, I for one am not questioning your knowledge and experience with hi-end audio, I have personally experienced your theater. As I have said before, the best I have heard.
But, a scientific approach to speaker wire might suggest looking at matching ohms, checking resistance. Larger guage wire, as we know, has less resistance to a point. To large and you can introduce resistance back into connection. I was taught that a signal/current runs on the outside of a wire. For example if you were to measure the resistance of two 8 gauge insulated wires, given the same type of wire, the wire with smaller and more strains should have less resistance than the wire with larger and fewer strains. Assuming you are using a quality grade of wire, a given size for a given length (check it with a simple ohms meter), isn't that as good as it gets?
Hi Darryl,

If we were just talking about voltage & current, you would be 100% correct. However we are talking about music here. That being the case, a whole bunch of new parameters come into play.

Dielectric constant
Conductor material
Helix design
RF & EMI shielding
Terminations
Lead & Lag timing
Frequency response
Capacitance

These all play a role in the cables performance & sonic signature.
__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
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  #17  
Old 04-11-2009, 08:14 AM
1KW 1KW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterlu View Post
Hi Darryl,

If we were just talking about voltage & current, you would be 100% correct. However we are talking about music here. That being the case, a whole bunch of new parameters come into play.

Dielectric constant
Conductor material
Helix design
RF & EMI shielding
Terminations
Lead & Lag timing
Frequency response
Capacitance

These all play a role in the cables performance & sonic signature.
You left out the most important parameter:

You ears Don't forget to protect your hearing. There is no way to restore life to dead nerve endings; the damage is permanent. Here is some information which will hopefully be helpful.
http://princetonent.com/Pages/Patien...rotection.html
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  #18  
Old 04-11-2009, 08:39 AM
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Masterlu Masterlu is online now
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That's why I always have my Audio Speedometer turned on.
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__________________
Ivan
FLORIDA
MX136, MC1.2KW(10) MC2KW(2), MCD1100, MS750(2) MVP881, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, HT-2 SUBS(2) HT3F(2) WS350(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) XCS350(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" MOTORIZED SCREEN, CINEMA-TECH SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: ACCUPHASE A300 AMPS, C3900 PRE-AMP, DP1000 CD/SACD TRANSPORT, DC1000 DIGITAL PROCESSOR, DG-68 DIGITAL EQUALIZER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, PS1230 POWER SUPPLY, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, WW PLATINUM CABLES
CAPE COD

MX150, MC501(2) MC1.2KW(10) MC2301(2) MR88, MVP881, MCD1100, MDA1000, C1000C/P/T, MPC1500, ESOTERIC K-01X 30th ANNIVERSARY (BLACK) SACD/CD PLAYER, G02-X CLOCK, HT3F(2) XRT2K, XCS2K, XR27(2) JL GOTHAM v2 SUBS(2) JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(4) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) KALEIDESCAPE STRATO & TERRA SERVERS 80-TB, LUMAGEN RADIANCE SCALER, SONY VPH-G90U 4K PROJECTOR, STEWART 120" SCREEN, SONUS FABER STRADIVARI, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, FORTRESS SEATING, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Analog Rig: CLEARAUDIO INNOVATION WOOD, UNIVERSAL ARM w/ Da VINCI' CART, 2nd UNIVERSAL ARM w/ GOLDFINGER STATEMENT CART, HRS-MXR REFERENCE RACK-GLOSS BLACK w/ M3X SHELVES, AESTHETIX RHEA SIG PHONO-PRE, BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Reference System: BURMESTER 911MK3 AMP(3), 088 PRE-AMP, 089 CD PLAYER, 100 PHONO PRE-AMP, 948 POWER CONDITIONER, ACCUPHASE DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, AVID ACUTUS REFERENCE SP TT, GRAHAM PHANTOM II SUPREME ARM, BENZ MICRO LP-S CART, GRANDIOSO P1X/D1X STACK, G1X RUBIDIUM MASTER CLOCK, N05 NETWORK PLAYER, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS-SXR CUSTOM RACK w/ M3X SHELVES, SONUS FABER AIDA SPEAKERS, JL FATHOM F113v2 SUBS(2) SOUND ANCHOR STANDS(2) WW PLATINUM CABLES

Library System: GRANDIOSO M1 MONOBLOCK AMPS, C1 LINESTAGE PRE-AMP, K1X CD/SACD PLAYER, G1 MASTER RUBIDIUM CLOCK, E02 PHONO-PRE, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, AERIAL ACOUSTICS 20T V2, AERIAL SW12 SUBS(2), CANTON REF K1’s, VPI HRX TT w/ SDS POWER SUPPLY, ORTOFON CADENZA BLACK CART, KLAUDIO RCM, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2, SHUNYATA OMEGA QR’s, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Esoteric/Bryston System: ESOTERIC C02-X PRE-AMP, P-02X TRANSPORT, D02-X DAC, G02-X CLOCK, BRYSTON 28B3 CUBED MONOBLOCK AMPS(4), BRYSTON BHA-1 HEADPHONE AMP, SHUNYATA DENALI 6000/S v2(2) EVEREST 8000 POWER CONDITIONER(2) ALTAIRA CG & SG HUBS, AMR-DP777-SE DAC, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, TAD REFERENCE ONE MK2 LOUDSPEAKERS, QUADRASPIRE RACK, WW PLATINUM CABLES
Accuphase/Canton System: ACCUPHASE E800 INTEGRATED, DP570 CD/SACD PLAYER, T1200 FM STEREO TUNER, DG-68 VOICING EQUALIZER, PS530 POWER SUPPLY, CANTON REF K3’s, CANTON REF K5’s, SILENZIO MUSIC SERVER, HRS MXR REFERENCE MAHOGHANY RACK w/ M3X2 SHELVES, WW GOLD CABLES
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  #19  
Old 04-11-2009, 09:15 AM
1KW 1KW is offline
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Quote:
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That's why I always have my Audio Speedometer turned on.
Fabulous
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  #20  
Old 04-11-2009, 09:46 AM
Still-One Still-One is offline
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Originally Posted by 2uberoller View Post
Ok,
I really did it now, I shook the branch with the big hornets nest . I am going to get a big
It won't be long before the moderator's come down from heaven, here to edit this forum. Let me tell you why I say this.

Yesterday, I went to Hi Fi House and compared Audioquest mid-low level cables retailing for around $400 for two to Transparent high level cables which retail for $2000 for two. I could not hear any difference between the two, nada. I am now convinced that resistance is the most important part of a speaker cable; as long as you have the proper gauge that can handle the current and runs are short ie less than 10 feet it is hard to hear any differences. How can we have a cable thread and not have this come up ?
Darn, I just typed a long response then deleted it...

I think you need to consider a few points when you noted you could not hear any difference. First, you were not listening to the cables in your own system in your room. The differences are usually subtle. Second, Did they swap out all the cables and interconnects? Having Company A's cable from pre to amp and Company B's cable from source to pre can cause synergy issues. Third, what were you expecting to hear? I am currently swapping out my MIT speaker wire for Transparent to match my interconnects. I am losing a "bit" of bass but am gaining something in the mid's where I can better hear the wood of guitars and vocals have a little less "ssss" attached. Note The MIT's actually cost me a bit more than the Transparent's did, so I am not having to justify the higher cost by finding subtle differences.

There are many people who do not want "boxes" in their cables such as those used by MIT and Transparent. Just like some people prefer what tubes do to the sound of a system versus solid state. You may well be one.

Saying that cables do not make a difference is similar to saying tires make no difference in the handling of a car.

Last edited by Still-One; 04-11-2009 at 12:11 PM.
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