AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Audio & Video > Tuners

Tuners FM, HD, Satellite

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 03-11-2019, 10:16 AM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Washington, DC, and vicinity, USA
Posts: 69
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeds View Post
...HD is essentially dead in the US...
Not so in the markets where I normally listen. In the metro areas of both the Washington, DC, and Albuquerque, NM, more than half the stations I listen to (including university stations) have one or two HD channels. (Not statistically meaningful -- perhaps I'm just more aware of it now that my car has HD.) This is the reason I need to acquire a tuner that can work around it, if not receive it. -- Clark2
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-11-2019, 10:26 AM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Washington, DC, and vicinity, USA
Posts: 69
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
...From my listening with a Sony XDR-F1HD forced to analog only (no blend) vs HD1:

1. HD1 was unable to accurately reproduce massed strings on MPR 99.5 KSJN classical concerts.

2. On MPR A Prairie Home Companion I was unable to tell the difference between a new Martin guitar and a 50 y.o. Martin guitar both played by the company’s president. Both guitars sounded the same. On the analog main carrier the difference was clearly audible and I had a preference for the sound of the older guitar.

3. On HD1 I was unable to hear the hall sound on familiar classical recordings where it was clearly audible on the analog main carrier...

Tom
Thank you, Tom, for your insights. Even though that Sony is not known for hi-fi analog-FM sound (something about actively adjusting the IF bandwidth to reduce noise on quiet passages, I think, though that probably wouldn't affect the HD sound), the comparison should be valid. -- Clark2
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-11-2019, 10:49 AM
rnrmf1971 rnrmf1971 is offline
Senior Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: orlando
Posts: 966
Default

The comments about the Sony are accurate - it's very warm sounding and will not differentiate details and has a high noise floor by comparison to better tuners.
That said, for me, it was enjoyable for what it was - a cheap $129 Hd tuner. I wouldn't consider it audiophile by any measure, though. It's fun.

It's likely that the least expensive "audiophile" Hd tuner option, these days, is the Sangean digital out into your choice of DAC. Otherwise you're limited to the used market.
__________________
Christian

STUFF:Mark Levinson No.52 pre-amp, Bricasti M28 amplifiers, Oppo BDP-205, Pioneer CT-43, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse IC's and speaker cables, Acrolink, Siltech, and Furutech PCs, Shunyata Triton V3 +Typhon w/ Sigma HC power cable, Sony SS-AR1 Speakers
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-12-2019, 02:15 AM
Formerly YB-2's Avatar
Formerly YB-2 Formerly YB-2 is offline
Retired


 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ Shore
Posts: 5,434
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark2 View Post
Not so in the markets where I normally listen. -- Clark2
I wonder if this isn't the result of the station mgmt being sold a "bill of goods" (HD radio) with a contract covering a certain time-frame (10yr?) so they continue on until the contract is up. My local 'go-to' station used to go on & on about HD's 'CD quality' until enough of us serious listeners pointed out what a crock that was. Rarely hear about their HD theses days other than it is available for alternate programming.
__________________
Glenn...
Audeze LCD-3 Canton Ref 9K Clearaudio SM Pro Denon DP-80 w/Lyra Kleos, Ortofon Cdza Blk & K-b, AT33R & AT150Ti Kenwood L-07M mono-blocks Mark Levinson No. 383 Oppo 203 Parasound JC3 jr PS Audio Ultimate Outlet Sony ST-J75 Stax UA-7/CF SurgeX XR-315 Woo WA6 Gen 1 WW Eclipse 8/7 Pt, Au, Ag, Mini(x2), Starlight & Nano Yamaha T-2
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-12-2019, 02:55 PM
cleeds cleeds is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formerly YB-2 View Post
I wonder if this isn't the result of the station mgmt being sold a "bill of goods" (HD radio) ... My local 'go-to' station used to go on & on about HD's 'CD quality' until enough of us serious listeners pointed out what a crock that was. Rarely hear about their HD theses days other than it is available for alternate programming.
The history of HD radio in the US is one of repeated missteps that overshadow whatever potential the technology might have had.

Things started to go wrong from the moment iBiquity branded its in-band, on-channel digital scheme. The assumption, of course, is that "HD" stands for high-definition. But, as licensor iBiquity (and its successor, DTS) explain, HD radio stands for ... nothing at all. And it certainly never stood for High Definition, the company says. Someone should have told them that launching an entirely new product based on a deceptive trade name just isn't smart.

HD promoters touted the technology as CD quality on FM, and FM quality on AM. Neither claim was quite true, of course, even under ideal conditions. And given that one of radio's greatest benefits is its portability, that's quite a handicap, because when you're mobile, reception conditions are constantly changing.

The technology arrived just as the US broadcasting industry began entering a free fall, a consequence of consolidators such as Clear Channel overpaying for stations, and then struggling to cut costs in an effort to stave off bankruptcy. That meant there wasn't much money to invest in HD programming, further limiting HD appeal. At the same time, cost cutting on the FM and AM sides cheapened those products, too. Data shows that while people still listen - radio reaches about 93 percent of US adults every week, Nielson says - the time spent listening is down. Some of that is almost certainly because listeners have more choices today, and that only creates a vicious circle of declining quality.

And it gets worse.

The additional noise HD helped spew into the AM band limited the coverage area of many stations. And HD contributes noise on FM, too, which of course is the topic of this thread. Just as there were cuts in radio programming budgets, there have been cuts in engineering budgets. So maintaining tricky things such as keeping the timing of the analog and digital signals synchronized (which is no small feat, and which is needed because a radio will switch back and forth as the HD signal fades) are likely to go unattended. Any HD signal problem - including things as simple as a computer lock-up that interrupts the programming - can go on and on and on for days. The engineer and programmers are too busy to listen. Or maybe they don't care. I've seen this happen even at major stations.

Many stations have turned off their HD encoders. Of course, many still use HD because it has marketing appeal to have "HD" attached to the end of a station's call letters.

But remember, even when it works: HD isn't high definition.
__________________
Infinity IRS Beta speaker system; Conrad Johnson Premier 1B, Bryston 4B, Audio Research D-300 amplifiers; VPI TNT III turntable, SME-V arm; Audio Research Ref 5SE preamp; Audio Research Ref Phono 2SE; McIntosh MR-80 tuner; McIntosh MVP-881 disc player; Bryston BDA-3 DAC; Moon 430 HA headphone amp; Tandberg TD20A, Crown SX-822, Nakamichi 670ZX tape decks. Power: multiple 20A derated dedicated lines, Tice Power Block/Titan, McIntosh MPC1500.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-12-2019, 03:21 PM
nicoff nicoff is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeds View Post
The history of HD radio in the US is one of repeated missteps that overshadow whatever potential the technology might have had.



Things started to go wrong from the moment iBiquity branded its in-band, on-channel digital scheme. The assumption, of course, is that "HD" stands for high-definition. But, as licensor iBiquity (and its successor, DTS) explain, HD radio stands for ... nothing at all. And it certainly never stood for High Definition, the company says. Someone should have told them that launching an entirely new product based on a deceptive trade name just isn't smart.



HD promoters touted the technology as CD quality on FM, and FM quality on AM. Neither claim was quite true, of course, even under ideal conditions. And given that one of radio's greatest benefits is its portability, that's quite a handicap, because when you're mobile, reception conditions are constantly changing.



The technology arrived just as the US broadcasting industry began entering a free fall, a consequence of consolidators such as Clear Channel overpaying for stations, and then struggling to cut costs in an effort to stave off bankruptcy. That meant there wasn't much money to invest in HD programming, further limiting HD appeal. At the same time, cost cutting on the FM and AM sides cheapened those products, too. Data shows that while people still listen - radio reaches about 93 percent of US adults every week, Nielson says - the time spent listening is down. Some of that is almost certainly because listeners have more choices today, and that only creates a vicious circle of declining quality.



And it gets worse.



The additional noise HD helped spew into the AM band limited the coverage area of many stations. And HD contributes noise on FM, too, which of course is the topic of this thread. Just as there were cuts in radio programming budgets, there have been cuts in engineering budgets. So maintaining tricky things such as keeping the timing of the analog and digital signals synchronized (which is no small feat, and which is needed because a radio will switch back and forth as the HD signal fades) are likely to go unattended. Any HD signal problem - including things as simple as a computer lock-up that interrupts the programming - can go on and on and on for days. The engineer and programmers are too busy to listen. Or maybe they don't care. I've seen this happen even at major stations.



Many stations have turned off their HD encoders. Of course, many still use HD because it has marketing appeal to have "HD" attached to the end of a station's call letters.



But remember, even when it works: HD isn't high definition.

Very good post. Your last sentence:
“But remember, even when it works: HD isn't high definition” makes it clear that you can’t polish a turd.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-12-2019, 05:37 PM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Washington, DC, and vicinity, USA
Posts: 69
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeds View Post
...The assumption, of course, is that "HD" stands for high-definition. But, as licensor iBiquity (and its successor, DTS) explain, HD radio stands for ... nothing at all...
I though it stood for "Hybrid Digital," which at least makes sense. -- Clark2
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-12-2019, 05:50 PM
Formerly YB-2's Avatar
Formerly YB-2 Formerly YB-2 is offline
Retired


 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NJ Shore
Posts: 5,434
Default

From iBiquity's standpoint it is "H"and us the "D"ollars. Have yet to read anything good about the company.
__________________
Glenn...
Audeze LCD-3 Canton Ref 9K Clearaudio SM Pro Denon DP-80 w/Lyra Kleos, Ortofon Cdza Blk & K-b, AT33R & AT150Ti Kenwood L-07M mono-blocks Mark Levinson No. 383 Oppo 203 Parasound JC3 jr PS Audio Ultimate Outlet Sony ST-J75 Stax UA-7/CF SurgeX XR-315 Woo WA6 Gen 1 WW Eclipse 8/7 Pt, Au, Ag, Mini(x2), Starlight & Nano Yamaha T-2
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:19 PM
Clark2 Clark2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Washington, DC, and vicinity, USA
Posts: 69
Default

Update: Setting aside HD for the moment and leaning toward modern digital tuners for my closely spaced, HD-blighted, public-radio band, I approached DaySequerra again. Through their local dealer they are willing to send me a demo M4.2Si (which incidentally has HD and AM) to try out in my situation. (I can't afford the M4FM, which is now only available with HD and is more than 4X the price. For comparison, the MD90T new is approaching twice the price.)

I will fire it up when it gets here and report on reception, sound quality (heavily dependent on local programming of course), and usability. Unfortunately I have no direct comparisons here (except the ancient Yamaha CT-800, which can't cope with the HD noise), so you'll just have to trust my aging ear and dulled sensibilities. Should be an interesting experiment for only the cost of round-trip shipping... -- Clark2
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:54 AM
cleeds cleeds is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark2 View Post
... they are willing to send me a demo M4.2Si ... I will fire it up when it gets here and report on reception, sound quality ... and usability ...
I'll be interested in your results! Will you also please share some of the other details, such as the antenna you're using, how it's mounted, and your distance from the station transmitters?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:24 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2019 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Acoustic Sciences Corportation
Acoustic Sciences Corportation
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Accuphase
Accuphase