Speakers to beat at the $30K mark in 2012

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by joeinid

Porn indeed I should have had them laminated

This is going to be a tough wait .......

Congratulations Joe. I know you are going to enjoy the TAD's.

Jim

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by BuffaloBill

This position would assume that every maker of high quality full-range speakers would agree that the sound produced from their speaker would benefit from the addition of a quality sub. That is different from what I have read and learned over the years.

No, the position indicates that not every speaker maker understands what the quality sub is supposed to be doing. Certainly the statement that subs always muck up the lower mids bears this out.

[Still-One]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Joe,

Subs are for every speaker, regardless of extension. Recreating low frequency pressure evenly down to the lowest frequencies yields tremendous benefit outside of the bass range. You cannot get that benefit any other way.

If 2 F113s are overkill, it more than likely means that the crossover is too high or they're in the wrong place in the room.

Bill

Bill I have still NEVER heard a set-up with Sub(s) that didn't sound like it has subs in the set-up. So I disagree. Every set-up does not need or require a sub.

Jim

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Bill I have still NEVER heard a set-up with Sub(s) that didn't sound like it has subs in the set-up. So I disagree. Every set-up does not need or require a sub.

Jim

As long as you can get bass down to the mid teens evenly, I would agree that you don't need it. But if you aren't playing those frequencies you are missing the information to which trponhunter refers.

And as for always hearing it - crossover is too high, sub is mispositioned, gain is too high or mains are not evenly pressurizing the room together making it impossible to blend the sub. Actually the last one is most often the dominant culprit.

[trponhunter]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Bill I have still NEVER heard a set-up with Sub(s) that didn't sound like it has subs in the set-up. So I disagree. Every set-up does not need or require a sub.

Jim

Of course, no system requires anything - it's up to you if you want the best results or not.

I've set up lots of supposedly truly full range speakers, and I can barely remember any of them offering true extreme low end on their own, without subs or electronic correction. So - I would say, almost all systems can be improved with proper integration of subs. As an example, look at how many photo's you see with Wilson Alexandria's with Subs - even in Dave Wilsons Listening room. This is a speaker with a claimed low end response to 20hz.
The reality is that even if the speaker can truly do 20hz, it seldom can when positioned in the location in the room where they end up going for best overall sound.
The advantage good subs provide is that they can be optimized in the room for only low end extension, and you can "drive" the room to linearize the bass response - something that is impossible with a full range, passive speaker.

I have heard many systems where subs improve everything, with no down sides.

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by Still-One

Bill I have still NEVER heard a set-up with Sub(s) that didn't sound like it has subs in the set-up. So I disagree. Every set-up does not need or require a sub.

Jim

Jim, of course just because "you" haven't heard it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[BuffaloBill]

Originally Posted by PHC1

Jim, of course just because "you" haven't heard it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I guess the converse is also true.

[joeinid]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Joe,

Subs are for every speaker, regardless of extension. Recreating low frequency pressure evenly down to the lowest frequencies yields tremendous benefit outside of the bass range. You cannot get that benefit any other way.

If 2 F113s are overkill, it more than likely means that the crossover is too high or they're in the wrong place in the room.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks, but I kinda meant in a physical way. They are imposing for a room my size. When I ran them with my Nolas (I am sure not totally set up properly) the difference with them was amazing. They filled in the bottom end nicely and made everything more complete and more enjoyable. Properly integrated with the CR-1's, I imagine it will be unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Still-One

Congratulations Joe. I know you are going to enjoy the TAD's.

Jim

Thank you Jim. I am eager to read your thoughts on your new mono blocks as they break in. They look awesome and I wonder how they compare to my 911 mk3 and other amps I've heard. Have a safe and happy vacation.

[PHC1]

I've heard excellent setups outside my own home, Bill's work in fact, Sonus Faber Elipsa and REL subs. I have achieved outstanding results over the years with one and two JL Audio subs as well as an active crossover for my monitor speakers. The subs could not be localized, the bass was even and confirmed by measurements and I had extension down to 20Hz flat. The Monitor speakers were also very grateful when the low bass was removed from them with an active crossover and rewarded my ears back with a more coherent and audibly improved lower mids. I have achieved what I thought was an absolute perfection in bass integration between monitors and subs. I personally don't need any further convincing, I've lived it.

[joeinid]

I hope to get some local, friendly AA members in on the setup