New Shunyata Products and advice

[med_designer]

Hello -

Hoping Caelin Gabriel can chime in on the new products I have heard about that are close to release. I am in the market for new a power distribution solution and associated cables. I have looked at the options from AudioQuest, Isotek, and PS Audio as well but the underlying background, science and held patents on the developed technologies by Shunyata is compelling. Perhaps most compelling is the positive results brought about by noise reduction in electrophysiology labs.

My needs are fairly straight forward. I will connecting several McIntosh components that include a C70 tube preamp, D1100 DAC, MCT450 SACD transport, MC152 power amp (150W per channel), and a Linn LP12 Radikal power supply. The Radikal converts AC to DC and supplies power and controls the DC motor.

Option 1:

1. Get a new Denali D6000/S V2 or a demo D6000/S V1 (to save a bit)
2. Use a Venom HC on a Denali D6000 connected to the wall outlet
3. Use new Venom NR cables the source components
4. Power amp directly to wall - about 10 feet away from source components

Option 2:

1. Get a Venom PS8 and connect with a new Venom HC NR to wall outlet
2. Get Defender and plug into Venom PS8
3. Use new Venom NR cables the source components
4. Power amp directly to wall - about 10 feet away from source components

Also - it would be nice to have an explanation as to why Shunyata never adopted regeneration. While very few companies seem to take this approach, on paper, and to those of us who just read marketing materials, it is compelling. But my gut instinct tells me perhaps it is not the best approach.

Thanks for the help in advance -

[CGabriel]

RE: Why Shunyata Research never adopted regeneration

When creating a product it is good, actually necessary, to have clearly defined concepts of what that product's purpose is and what specific issues it will solve. Then you can start exploring possible engineering solutions and then finally create the actual product.

What is the first issue?
First is to provide power distribution. Notice I didn't say make a power conditioner. When you have more than two components in a system you need some form of power outlet expansion from what the wall outlet can provide. The simplest form of power distribution is a simple power strip.

What about noise reduction, voltage regulation, power factor correction, transient protection and whole host of other AC power related issues that be addressed in a product. A product that includes noise reduction or other power correction or manipulations would be considered a "power conditioner".

You will notice in our technical write-ups that we are constantly talking about two principles: DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery) and CCI (component to component interference). The reason we have settled upon these two principles is a result of our years of research into power related variables and their correlation to audio/video system performance. In other words, there are many technical issues that a power conditioner could address. But the key question is whether or not those have direct improvement to system performance. We must always keep in mind the context which in our case is delivering a product that will "improve" or at minimum NOT "degrade" audio or video performance. You spend tens to hundreds of thousands on audio/video equipment in a quest to do - what? Improve the sound or video quality. What sense would it make to audition component after component in your search to improve the system when a key component of your system that you may be blissfully unaware of is degrading total system performance. That would be the power system which includes the power distributor/conditioner and the associated power cables.

So over the years we have kept our primary goal very clearly in mind when creating our power products. It's all about the perceived sound and video stupid. Not calling anyone stupid, it's just a simple goal statement. What use is providing voltage regulation when in most industrialized countries that is not a problem and it has little to no correlation to perceived sound quality and most implementations of it actually cause other problems. What problems? - Hum, buzzing, heat and a severe loss of DTCD. DTCD being that ability of the product to deliver transient pulses of current.

So our design imperatives are to first and foremost: Improve or avoid loss of DTCD. DTCD has a direct and powerful correlation to what people hear in their systems. We consider the base of the pyramid in our design hierarchy. Next in importance would be to reduce noise - but if and only if you can do it without significantly impacting DTCD. This is no easy task since coils, transformers and inverters (regenerators) ALL have a deleterious impact on DTCD. You can design products that mitigate the inherent issues but that requires very large coils and transformers. This makes the resultant product very large, heavy and noisy. So what's the point of getting a power conditioner to supposedly improve audio performance when that product itself is injecting noise either directly into the room with humming transformers, DC offset (hum again) or buzzing sounds. Doesn't make much sense to me. I want a product that is dead quiet, doesn't hum or buzz and doesn't produce heat. If the power conditioner is producing heat that means that it is converting some of your power to heat which means it is not available for your system.

One of our breakthroughs was the development of our CCI-X noise filters that are very effective but can still pass very high levels of continuous current. For instance the new Denali 6000/S v2 can reduce noise from 100 kHz to over 30 MHz by greater than 60 db. Compare this to some other products that top out at 24 to 28 dB of noise reduction and notice that they don't specify a frequency range. And yet even with that noise reduction ability each and every outlet is capable of delivering the full current potential of the power line. This is why products from our sister company, Clear Image Scientific, have been so successful in high-tech medical imaging applications when other product designs have failed.

So now why have we never implemented a power regeneration product. First you should know that we possess a patented technology for active power correction. So we could make such a product that would be superior and patented. Further you need to know that there are no proprietary or patented regenerators. Regenerators are simply AC-DC-AC converters. That means that they are simply a form of amplifier that is fed a 50 or 60 Hz signal to an internal inverter to create an AC waveform. Do you know what happens to amplifiers when they are run 30-50% of their maximum capacity 24/7? All of these products are dependent upon the reserve current that they store usually in large capacitors. I know, you have seen ads where they say they can deliver high impulse currents but that is always measured into a single load with the device lightly loaded. Try powering the regenerator with a typical system load - then run the instantaneous current test again. It will not look so good.

So let me ask you this: What is the superior design? A product the solves the design issues and does it simply with minimal complexity? Or a product that is very complex and creates problems along the way?

There were many companies that made regenerators - most of them are gone. There is a reason. Heat, complexity and lack of reliability.

Our product carries a LIFETIME WARRANTY. There are no regenerator designs that can compare.

I could go on but I think that is sufficient for now.

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by med_designer

Hello -

Hoping Caelin Gabriel can chime in on the new products I have heard about that are close to release. I am in the market for new a power distribution solution and associated cables. I have looked at the options from AudioQuest, Isotek, and PS Audio as well but the underlying background, science and held patents on the developed technologies by Shunyata is compelling. Perhaps most compelling is the positive results brought about by noise reduction in electrophysiology labs.

My needs are fairly straight forward. I will connecting several McIntosh components that include a C70 tube preamp, D1100 DAC, MCT450 SACD transport, MC152 power amp (150W per channel), and a Linn LP12 Radikal power supply. The Radikal converts AC to DC and supplies power and controls the DC motor.

Option 1:

1. Get a new Denali D6000/S V2 or a demo D6000/S V1 (to save a bit)
2. Use a Venom HC on a Denali D6000 connected to the wall outlet
3. Use new Venom NR cables the source components
4. Power amp directly to wall - about 10 feet away from source components

Option 2:

1. Get a Venom PS8 and connect with a new Venom HC NR to wall outlet
2. Get Defender and plug into Venom PS8
3. Use new Venom NR cables the source components
4. Power amp directly to wall - about 10 feet away from source components

Also - it would be nice to have an explanation as to why Shunyata never adopted regeneration. While very few companies seem to take this approach, on paper, and to those of us who just read marketing materials, it is compelling. But my gut instinct tells me perhaps it is not the best approach.

Thanks for the help in advance -

If my understanding is correct (and Caelin and Grant should jump in here), the problem with AC regenerators is the same as with components: they generate a back wave of noise (from the power supply in the case of components, or from the regenerator in the case of those).

If my understanding is also correct, its this back wave of noise from all the various components that is attenuated/ameliorated by the Shunyata Research CCI™ technology.

From my own personal experience, my "entry-level" Shunyata Hydra 4 makes the system sound considerably better than a PS Audio Power Plant Premier.

I would get the Denalis 6000/S V2 if your budget allows. The fully isolated receptacles, full CCI *and* high-current functionality and the (rather amazing) 60 dB noise reduction sounds frickin' amazing.

[CGabriel]

Originally Posted by med_designer

Hello -

Hoping Caelin Gabriel can chime in on the new products I have heard about that are close to release. I am in the market for new a power distribution solution and associated cables. I have looked at the options from AudioQuest, Isotek, and PS Audio as well but the underlying background, science and held patents on the developed technologies by Shunyata is compelling. Perhaps most compelling is the positive results brought about by noise reduction in electrophysiology labs.

My needs are fairly straight forward. I will connecting several McIntosh components that include a C70 tube preamp, D1100 DAC, MCT450 SACD transport, MC152 power amp (150W per channel), and a Linn LP12 Radikal power supply. The Radikal converts AC to DC and supplies power and controls the DC motor.

Option 1:

1. Get a new Denali D6000/S V2 or a demo D6000/S V1 (to save a bit)
2. Use a Venom HC on a Denali D6000 connected to the wall outlet
3. Use new Venom NR cables the source components
4. Power amp directly to wall - about 10 feet away from source components

Option 2:

1. Get a Venom PS8 and connect with a new Venom HC NR to wall outlet
2. Get Defender and plug into Venom PS8
3. Use new Venom NR cables the source components
4. Power amp directly to wall - about 10 feet away from source components

Thanks for the help in advance -

The new DENALI 6000/S v2 is the first of several power conditioners that we will be releasing in the next three months.

We now have three lines of power conditioners that start with our "Value Line". This includes all of the Venom power conditioners: PS8 (US), EU7 (EU), UK6 (UK) and AU8 (Aussie).

The next step up the ladder is our "Performance Line". All of the products in the Performance Line include our patented NIC (noise isolation chamber) technology. This include the Delta, Alpha and Sigma power conditioners. Get more information on this when it is posted to our website in the coming week.

The top tier is our "Reference Line" of products that all use the patented QR/BB technology. This starts with the newly announced DENALI 6000/S and includes the widely reviewed TRITON v3 and the TYPHON QR and the DENALI 6000/T models.

So to make a good recommendation for you I would need to know your objectives. Is it to achieve absolute reference performance or do you want a balance of performance and value? A budget would be helpful or if you want to build the system in stages that would help also.

Thanks for the questions,

Caelin

[For The Love of Music]

Caelin, is some of what you mention the reasons you do not build linear power supplies?

[SCAudiophile]

Originally Posted by CGabriel

RE: Why Shunyata Research never adopted regeneration

When creating a product it is good, actually necessary, to have clearly defined concepts of what that product's purpose is and what specific issues it will solve. Then you can start exploring possible engineering solutions and then finally create the actual product.

What is the first issue?
First is to provide power distribution. Notice I didn't say make a power conditioner. When you have more than two components in a system you need some form of power outlet expansion from what the wall outlet can provide. The simplest form of power distribution is a simple power strip.

What about noise reduction, voltage regulation, power factor correction, transient protection and whole host of other AC power related issues that be addressed in a product. A product that includes noise reduction or other power correction or manipulations would be considered a "power conditioner".

You will notice in our technical write-ups that we are constantly talking about two principles: DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery) and CCI (component to component interference). The reason we have settled upon these two principles is a result of our years of research into power related variables and their correlation to audio/video system performance. In other words, there are many technical issues that a power conditioner could address. But the key question is whether or not those have direct improvement to system performance. We must always keep in mind the context which in our case is delivering a product that will "improve" or at minimum NOT "degrade" audio or video performance. You spend tens to hundreds of thousands on audio/video equipment in a quest to do - what? Improve the sound or video quality. What sense would it make to audition component after component in your search to improve the system when a key component of your system that you may be blissfully unaware of is degrading total system performance. That would be the power system which includes the power distributor/conditioner and the associated power cables.

So over the years we have kept our primary goal very clearly in mind when creating our power products. It's all about the perceived sound and video stupid. Not calling anyone stupid, it's just a simple goal statement. What use is providing voltage regulation when in most industrialized countries that is not a problem and it has little to no correlation to perceived sound quality and most implementations of it actually cause other problems. What problems? - Hum, buzzing, heat and a severe loss of DTCD. DTCD being that ability of the product to deliver transient pulses of current.

So our design imperatives are to first and foremost: Improve or avoid loss of DTCD. DTCD has a direct and powerful correlation to what people hear in their systems. We consider the base of the pyramid in our design hierarchy. Next in importance would be to reduce noise - but if and only if you can do it without significantly impacting DTCD. This is no easy task since coils, transformers and inverters (regenerators) ALL have a deleterious impact on DTCD. You can design products that mitigate the inherent issues but that requires very large coils and transformers. This makes the resultant product very large, heavy and noisy. So what's the point of getting a power conditioner to supposedly improve audio performance when that product itself is injecting noise either directly into the room with humming transformers, DC offset (hum again) or buzzing sounds. Doesn't make much sense to me. I want a product that is dead quiet, doesn't hum or buzz and doesn't produce heat. If the power conditioner is producing heat that means that it is converting some of your power to heat which means it is not available for your system.

One of our breakthroughs was the development of our CCI-X noise filters that are very effective but can still pass very high levels of continuous current. For instance the new Denali 6000/S v2 can reduce noise from 100 kHz to over 30 MHz by greater than 60 db. Compare this to some other products that top out at 24 to 28 dB of noise reduction and notice that they don't specify a frequency range. And yet even with that noise reduction ability each and every outlet is capable of delivering the full current potential of the power line. This is why products from our sister company, Clear Image Scientific, have been so successful in high-tech medical imaging applications when other product designs have failed.

So now why have we never implemented a power regeneration product. First you should know that we possess a patented technology for active power correction. So we could make such a product that would be superior and patented. Further you need to know that there are no proprietary or patented regenerators. Regenerators are simply AC-DC-AC converters. That means that they are simply a form of amplifier that is fed a 50 or 60 Hz signal to an internal inverter to create an AC waveform. Do you know what happens to amplifiers when they are run 30-50% of their maximum capacity 24/7? All of these products are dependent upon the reserve current that they store usually in large capacitors. I know, you have seen ads where they say they can deliver high impulse currents but that is always measured into a single load with the device lightly loaded. Try powering the regenerator with a typical system load - then run the instantaneous current test again. It will not look so good.

So let me ask you this: What is the superior design? A product the solves the design issues and does it simply with minimal complexity? Or a product that is very complex and creates problems along the way?

There were many companies that made regenerators - most of them are gone. There is a reason. Heat, complexity and lack of reliability.

Our product carries a LIFETIME WARRANTY. There are no regenerator designs that can compare.

I could go on but I think that is sufficient for now.

Great response.....thank you Caelin. Personally I learn something new every time you post.

Regenerators: i have owned several audio vendor component regen units and heard many more. They always have shortcomings over time and IMHO eventually the music and its dynamic range, transients, etc...sounds compressed and lacking life compared to what I have today no matter how good each one was.

[med_designer]

Caelin -

Thanks for the detailed response. Very helpful.

As for my budget, I would like to balance price vs. performance with a path to upgrade as funds allow. I tend to lean toward the Denali 6000/S V2 as the core of the system, start with Venom cables and the upgrade these as budget allows. I would like to do the shelf version as it will work out a bit better for me in the long run.

As far as my amp goes would you plug it into the Denali as well? I do not listen loud and the amp is rated at 150W per channel but I never hit more than 15W based on the output meters. According to the manual the amp power requirements are 120V | 60 Hz | 3.7 amps.

Will you be making a longer power cord - around 10' or so?

[Puma Cat]

Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

Great response.....thank you Caelin. Personally I learn something new every time you post.

Yeah! Me, too!

[btn2803]

Hi Caelin,

When/if Shunyata releases the 6000T v2, will you offer trade-in option for those with 6000T (v1)? Or, trade-in option for 6000T (v1) to the 6000S v2?

Thanks!!

[LarsT]

Looks like I’m going to have to sell a kidney [emoji23]