AudioAficionado.org  

Go Back   AudioAficionado.org > Manufacturers Forums > Shunyata Research

Shunyata Research Designing Silent Systems for recording, film and music

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 08-27-2016, 09:22 AM
Picto Picto is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantS View Post
Hi all. Good time for a re-fresh of info...
Grant, thank you for this nice opinion piece or "billet d'humeur" as we say in French. It is both informative and fair to all.

Looking forward to get some information on the European version of the Denali (or Eiger) power conditioners!

Bertrand

Last edited by Picto; 08-27-2016 at 09:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-27-2016, 05:52 PM
GrantS GrantS is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 192
Default

Thank you, Bertrand. I prefer when people use a real name. It feels more personal. Love the ARC stuff by the way. They make incredible electronics and are all dear friends.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-28-2016, 03:20 PM
bruno2009 bruno2009 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 389
Default

Hi GrantS - wow, thanx lots for sharing your experience and information. I have decided to go with a Shunyata power distributor (hence the thread). Still trying to figure out which one to go with.

All the best,

Christoph
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-29-2016, 09:55 AM
GrantS GrantS is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 192
Default

Hi Christoph. Feel free to check with myself, or Richard Rogers at our factory. I will be in my office for the next two weeks. We'd be happy to help.

Best regards,

Grant
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-29-2016, 11:54 AM
Robert_Anderson's Avatar
Robert_Anderson Robert_Anderson is offline
Senior Member


 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 3,499
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruno2009 View Post
Hi - I`m thinking about a Hydra for my components. I have no experience with power distributors at all. How is your experience - is it a nice "gimmick" for our hobby (and we`re all a little crazy after all) or is it a real audible improvement?

If so - what would you compare it with when talking "measurable improvement".

Thanx all
I work on a ship configured with an abnormal and noisy configuration, without a technical response, I can tell you that ambient noise was cleared up significantly (meaning that I could hear the pitch of the generators very clearly, and with the Hydra, 90% of that noise disappeared). With high end tube electronics, it is more apparent. I hope this is helpful.
__________________
Poland:
Silenzio, Simaudio, Luxman, Bricasti, Bryston, Shunyata, Stax, Meze, Linn, Audeze, and Dan Clark Headphones, Stax, Wireworld, Crystal, Nordost, Siltech.

Home Main System:
Magnepan 20.7, Pass Labs XA 100.5, Audio Research Reference 6, Esoteric P-03, D-03, G0-Rb, DV-60, Clearaudio Innovation & Tangent arm, VPI HW19 MK4 & ET 2.5 arm, Mark Levinson 37, Aesthetix Rhea Signature, Magnum Dynalab Etude, Kiseki PHS, Sumiko Palos Santos Presentation,Wireworld, Crystal Absolute Dream, Shunyata, Acoustic Zen, and Stealth cables

Other
Avalon Arcus, Snell Type AIII, Tympani IV, Green Mountain Europa, Martin Logan CLS, Tympani 1D, Counterpoint, GAS, Yamaha, Levinson, Perreaux, Proceed, Theta, Linn, and other collectibles, including 60 different headphones and 30+ headphone amps, over 60 cartridges, and too many cables, stands, and tweaks to list.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-30-2016, 07:56 AM
bruno2009 bruno2009 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 389
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantS View Post
Hi Christoph. Feel free to check with myself, or Richard Rogers at our factory. I will be in my office for the next two weeks. We'd be happy to help.

Best regards,

Grant
Hi Grant,
thanx for the offer - I`m from Germany - so we would have to communicate via Mail / PN.

All the best,

Christoph
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-30-2016, 11:59 AM
GrantS GrantS is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruno2009 View Post
Hi Grant,
thanx for the offer - I`m from Germany - so we would have to communicate via Mail / PN.

All the best,

Christoph
Adib Khavari's family at Audio Components (our distributor in Germany) are great friends and we stay very close. You could speak to Adib or Wolfgang if that is easier, or we could talk or e-mail.

We have to make a separate model than Denali for Germany because of the shucko outlets and how specific our designs are.

We have the EU model in process for sometime this Fall. It will be called Hydra Eiger. The aesthetic will be similar to Denali but because of the design difference, it's necessary that Eiger be its own model. Likely, it will cost more than Denali simply because of the added hand labor and build-out on our end.

The US versus EU price differences relate to our reluctance to use inflated retail prices to balance international pricing (one international retail price) or influence sales. We do not price products in the "silly" realm versus their "true" material and design value.

We are a simple company by design. We use a very well defined pricing and design criteria that maximizes value for customers --- and we have the service to back it up. Yes, a small company; a brilliant designer. We use extremely fair retail pricing based on material/labor costs. It's why we are still here--and we will continue to be.

Feel free to e-mail grant@shunyata.com with any questions.

Best regards,

Grant
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-15-2016, 10:55 PM
postbop postbop is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1
Default Shunyata philosophy

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantS View Post
Hi all. Good time for a re-fresh of info.

From our perspective, power is vastly different (and far more critical) than simple audio cabling. its not a tweak or a random set of numbers or listening tests. Yes, we listen intently. We measure to prove what we do in virtually every arena, but there is more to it than that.

...

Best regards,

Grant

Shunyata Research

Hi Grant,

Shunyata’s modus operandi based on sound engineering principles, informed by listening, and backed up by measurement has always appealed to me, as have the results: all my signal and power cables at this stage are Shunyata.

I’m really looking forward to trying a Denali next. Everything that it aims to do – cleaning up power without limiting current, and minimizing inter-component interference – makes absolute sense. But I was hoping you could also help me better understand how Shunyata’s philosophy determines what it doesn’t do – e.g., active regulation, or even the sort of waveform shape regeneration that other manufacturers tout as essential. Is it the case that you all believe that those goals are far less important than noise elimination, maybe because you think most downstream components handle regulation and shape distortion sufficiently well? Or is it the case that solving these problems comes at an unacceptable price, such as restricting current flow/headroom, or actual product cost?

Thanks!

Vlad
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-16-2016, 09:27 AM
GrantS GrantS is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 192
Default

Hi Vlad,

You ask some great questions. All electronics regulate voltage within 10 volts on either side of the operating voltage, so in essence components regulate voltage on their own. If you have voltage swings outside of the 10v difference, the electrical company should be compelled to correct the problem--which is far better than adding more boxes in front of electronics.

In medical systems, its about noise reduction #1. In audio systems it should be all about instantaneous current, timing and dynamics 1-2-3. Better instantaneous current lowers perceived noise on its own--not a subtle difference.

Lower peak-current resistance in front of electronics also gives you the sense of a "live" sound--even with a pre-amp, DAC -- and especially amps. Everything power related should be kept as simple as possible. That was the reason for our Hydra Denali Desigin.

I've said before, we calibrate torque wrenches to a specific setting and choose specific termination alloys to maximize peak-current transfer at every junction. We developed KPIP and we use Cryogenics because they make a difference. From our perspective, you pay attention to simplicity with power--you are trying to draw a straight line between the panel and the component. The fewer breaks, the better the result. Putting Regenerators, Transformers, voltage regulators, chokes, coils in line is the opposite of what we do. Its the reactive variables you want to control and we don't do reactance--whether inductive or capacitive because it can interfere with the power supplies in electronics, which all have inductance or capacitance to some degree because they are trying to filter noise as well. That is why manufactures of electronics have been historically against "power conditioning". They feel that its already built into their power supplies. We agree. We are simply supporting that theory and adding in-system noise isolation. The idea that noise comes in from outside is antiquated and simply off point.

In system noise is the problem. It's a mini-grid, electrically speaking. Control the near-field component-to-component noise, and worry less about the brick-wall approach from outside noise--chokes, coils, transformers. It's been true in literally every system I have visited and I have visited more than a few. Brick Wall filters block outside noise. They also bounce back inside noise. Our POV outside of view on the hit parade is to not restrict peak current. :-). After that, you try to reduce noise passively.

Room treatment, power and component/speaker isolation, in my experience --and I have some, are the most under-recognized means of improving system performance. Bob Hodas is a friend and genius at doing in an unbelievable room. Paul and Bruce from Stillpoints and Mike from HRS are close friends and brilliant at room and component isolation. We are in a detail oriented business --and everything matters. If you are not paying attention to the room, power and isolation, you are not getting the most form your system.

From my POV. If you get the room, power and component isolation correct, you can spend less on electronics/speakers and have a spectacular system. Unfortunately, many retail customers buy with their eyes and Dealers like to sell the big hardware. It's always been that way. I am simply trying to inform friends, dealers and customers that there is more going on with systems than expensive electronics or giant speakers.

Power delivery should be as simple as you can make it based on your system context. I have been all over the world for 17 years and to extremely complex, high-end systems--SkyWalker Sound, Pink Floyd, Rick Rubin's studio. These people make a living caring about sound quality and in every case, -- simple wins over complex in terms of power delivery.

In medical, electrophysiology specifically, all the hospitals I visited were using iso-transformers and thought that was fine. They were wrong. There measurement devices were measuring .5 noise levels and they were struggling with in-system noise while cauterizing heart tissue with a device called an RFI generator. Right? RFI generator? Wow. I visited 5 EP labs, installed our system and their noise went from .5 to .01 (the limit of the labs ability to measure noise). On top of that, the surgeons ability to view the topography of the heart improved, making the procedures much easier. We definitely have the in-system noise reduction narrowed down to an ideal, but that is different from high end audio where its all about listening- timing-dynamics.

Anyway, I've scrolled on forever and over-answered your questions, but we are all about detail. :-)

Grant

Last edited by GrantS; 09-16-2016 at 10:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-16-2016, 03:15 PM
GrantS GrantS is offline
Senior Member

 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 192
Default

Thank you for the reply, Christian.

Many times--not always, glare or brightness in the upper mid and low treble is related to compression of the signal and that starts with power.

As an example, I tried the P300 when it first came out, when it was covered relentlessly by Stereophile--front cover and all that--- before I worked with Caelin. It reduced noise for sure, but after listening for a time, I kept wanting to turn up the sound to get timing/dynamics back and when I did, the sound became compressed, sharp and opaque. And this was simply driving a Mark Levinson 39 integrated player/pre-amp. No amp, just a single source component. However, maybe that is simply how I listen because we have to keep that in mind-- we all listen a little differently. I listen for timing first, and so does Caelin.

Obviously, Instantaneous delivery of peak current is a theme with us in terms of un-limiting dynamics and timing in sound.

If you have a small ground loop hum or bass-boom in your system, our products may make that worse because they open the flood-gates with peak-current--so if the speakers have a small issue being close to the side-walls it will get worse. If there is a GL hum, it will become more pronounced--as it should. The good thing is the problems are more exposed and can be solved. I've been doing that a few years now and we have very few misses.

Caelin and his and Father and sisters are Master electricians, so it starts there. It's the reason I have been asked to do electrical consulting and sit in on new operating room conferences several times. We are not simply a high end manufacturer of power conditioning. There is more to it than that.

The room and component support plays a leading role as well, which is why I mention Bob Hodas, Stillpoints and HRS---these are amazing people and products. Not overpriced, but hey--its high end audio after all. :-).

You can get a lot for a small outlay of $ if you pay attention to room, power and component isolation. Grand hardware and speakers look great and surely they drive sales in High End audio, but if you miss the fundamentals you are not getting the performance out of your system that you should be. Kind of like Football (I'm a parent-brainwashed Packer fan). It's all about the fundamentals. :-)

Best regards,

Grant
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Audioaficionado.org tested by Norton Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:59 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.
Audio Aficionado Sponsors
AudioAficionado Subscriber
AudioAficionado Subscriber
Inspire By Dennis Had
Inspire By Dennis Had
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Harmonic Resolution Systems
Wyred4Sound
Wyred4Sound
Dragonfire Acoustics
Dragonfire Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
GIK Acoustics
Esoteric
Esoteric
AC Infinity
AC Infinity
JL Audio
JL Audio
Add Powr
Add Powr
Accuphase - Soulution
Accuphase - Soulution
Audio by E
Audio by E
Canton
Canton
Bryston
Bryston
WireWorld Cables
WireWorld Cables
Stillpoints
Stillpoints
Bricasti Design
Bricasti Design
Furutech
Furutech
Shunyata Research
Shunyata Research
Legend Audio & Video
Legend Audio & Video