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  #131  
Old 10-17-2016, 07:53 PM
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Charles.......These tubes you are calling Telefunken are Black Diamond Telefunken Elektroakustik tubes. Telefunken Elektroakustik is a trademarked name for a particular line of JJ Tubes. They are not Telefunken tubes. There is a difference.
Dan, you may well be right, but I'm simply going by what they're called by Telefunken, Tube Depot and Magnum Dynalab. This is off Telefunken's website:

The TELEFUNKEN Black Diamond Series tubes are built in the JJ Electronic Factory in Eastern Europe based on their existing models. The Black Diamond Series tubes go through an extensive multi-tier testing and quality control process, as well as a cryogenic treatment in the USA to ensure they are the best representation of European made tubes. Each vacuum tube is burned in for 24 hours, tested for all critical parameters, cryogenically treated, and tested a final time. TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik guarantees this by branding them with the legendary diamond logo.

And . . .

TELEFUNKEN's Black Diamond Series tubes have been screen printed with black ink to clearly differentiate them from the original, white inked diamond-based TELEFUNKEN tubes, originally produced in Germany in the early and mid 20th century.

There's other information, but this is enough to quote. I don't know how much Telefunken's involved with the actual tube manufacture, but the Black Diamonds don't sound the same as the JJ tubes I have, that's for sure. As for the Mullards in use currently, they seem to be doing okay with the C2300's treble set to -2 and the Shunyata Venom 3s as a power cord. But those two changes make me wonder if the Black Diamonds should get another chance.
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  #132  
Old 10-17-2016, 09:07 PM
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There's other information, but this is enough to quote. I don't know how much Telefunken's involved with the actual tube manufacture, but the Black Diamonds don't sound the same as the JJ tubes I have, that's for sure. As for the Mullards in use currently, they seem to be doing okay with the C2300's treble set to -2 and the Shunyata Venom 3s as a power cord. But those two changes make me wonder if the Black Diamonds should get another chance.
Charles.......Telefunken, the original German vacuum tube and microphone manufacturer, has nothing to do with the manufacture of the JJ Tubes Black Diamond Telefunken Elektroakustik tubes because Telefunken Germany no longer exists. The Telefunken brand name and diamond logo were licensed for private use in the year 2000 by Toni Roger Fishman. A new company, Telefunken USA, was incorporated in early 2001. In May 2009 Telefunken USA was renamed Telefunken Elektroakustik, gaining exclusive rights to manufacture vacuum tubes bearing the Telefunken Trade Mark and a variety of professional audio products, primarily copies of the famous Telefunken microphones.

The use of the Telefunken and Telefunken Elektroakustik branding is a marketing decision to capitalize on the original Telefunken German company reputation by association. No doubt the Telefunken name is promoted rigorously through every channel possible, one advertisement after another to sell JJ Tubes more expensive vacuum tube line. Calling these tubes Telefunken may make certain buyers feel all warm and fuzzy about their Telefunken purchase, but Telefunken Elektroakustik tubes are not the true German manufactured Telefunken tubes. Calling JJ tubes Telefunken Elektroakustik doesn't make them genuine Telefunken tubes. Thinking they are the same product in anything other than a licensed brand name is completely bogus. That's my point.
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Last edited by jdandy; 10-18-2016 at 03:14 PM.
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  #133  
Old 10-18-2016, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
Charles.......Telefunken, the original German vacuum tube and microphone manufacturer, has nothing to do with the manufacture of the JJ Tubes Black Diamond Telefunken Elektroakustik tubes because Telefunken Germany no longer exists. The Telefunken brand name and diamond logo were licensed for private use in the year 2000 by Toni Roger Fishman. A new company, Telefunken USA, was incorporated in early 2001. In May 2009 Telefunken USA was renamed Telefunken Elektroakustik, gaining exclusive rights to manufacture vacuum tubes bearing the Telefunken Trade Mark and a variety of professional audio products, primarily copies of the famous Telefunken microphones.

The use of the Telefunken and Telefunken Elektroakustik branding is a marketing decision to capitalize on the original Telefunken German company reputation by association. No doubt the Telefunken name is promoted rigorously through every channel possible, one advertisement after another to sell JJ Tubes more expensive vacuum tube line. Calling these tubes Telefunken may make certain buyers feel all warm and fuzzy about their Telefunken purchase, but Telefunken Elektroakustik tubes are not the true German manufactured Telefunken tubes. Calling JJ tubes Telefunken Elektroakustik doesn't make them genuine Telefunken tubes. Thinking they are the same product in anything other than a licensed brand name is completely bogus. That's my point.
Hi,

I don't disagree with your point, actually. I know that the Black Diamonds aren't the original Telefunken tubes (which have white diamonds), and not made in Germany. I suppose it's more that the question is of little import to me ultimately. My first thought was that the Black Diamonds were essentially souped-up JJ tubes, regardless of how much input Telefunken had in their manufacture (hinted at in post #107). However, after your post and a bit of quick reading on my part, the current iteration of Telefunken seems to be about recreating the magic of the original products (microphones especially), as well as introducing new products aiming to live up to the standard set by the original Telefunken. I was unaware initially of this being a new company with the same name; I thought it was a re-structured version of the original.

All that said, despite my earlier complaint about their brightness with the infamous '60s CDs and overall to a lesser extent, I still think the Black Diamonds are pretty good overall. I did like their bottom end. I may even put them back into the 2300 to try them with tone adjustments and different PCs, but not right now.
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  #134  
Old 10-18-2016, 08:48 PM
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I don't disagree with your point, actually..... I was unaware initially of this being a new company with the same name; I thought it was a re-structured version of the original.
Charles.......I could tell from the comments you were making that you thought these new JJ tubes with their Telefunken logo were somehow still associated with the original Telefunken tubes. That is precisely what JJ Tubes hopes the general public will think. It is also why I remained persistent in trying to explain to you the difference.

Telefunken Germany had no input into the creation of JJ's Telefunken Elektroakustic tube line. Telefunken Germany has been defunct for a long time and hasn't manufactured vacuum tubes for decades. The German engineers at Telefunken long ago took their metallurgy secrets with them. That is one reason why genuine NOS Telefunken tubes such as the highly revered ECC803s (12Ax7) are selling for over $350.00 each or more if you can find them. I saw a single NOS gold pin Telefunken ECC803S on Tube Depot's website for $1195.00. The Telefunken Elektroakustic ECC83-TK sells for $44.00 on Tube Depot. That kind of sums it up if you ask me.

I am not trying to disparage Telefunken Elektroakustic vacuum tubes or their other products. It seems that these tubes are being well received. Only time will tell whether this more expensive version of JJ's rebranded Telefunken Elektroakustic tubes will prove to have greater reliability and longevity than the JJ branded tubes are known for.
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  #135  
Old 10-20-2016, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
Charles.......I could tell from the comments you were making that you thought these new JJ tubes with their Telefunken logo were somehow still associated with the original Telefunken tubes. That is precisely what JJ Tubes hopes the general public will think. It is also why I remained persistent in trying to explain to you the difference.

Telefunken Germany had no input into the creation of JJ's Telefunken Elektroakustic tube line. Telefunken Germany has been defunct for a long time and hasn't manufactured vacuum tubes for decades. The German engineers at Telefunken long ago took their metallurgy secrets with them. That is one reason why genuine NOS Telefunken tubes such as the highly revered ECC803s (12Ax7) are selling for over $350.00 each or more if you can find them. I saw a single NOS gold pin Telefunken ECC803S on Tube Depot's website for $1195.00. The Telefunken Elektroakustic ECC83-TK sells for $44.00 on Tube Depot. That kind of sums it up if you ask me.

I am not trying to disparage Telefunken Elektroakustic vacuum tubes or their other products. It seems that these tubes are being well received. Only time will tell whether this more expensive version of JJ's rebranded Telefunken Elektroakustic tubes will prove to have greater reliability and longevity than the JJ branded tubes are known for.
I had figured that if it were the original Telefunken, they were not only reconstituted but diminished as well if they had someone else making their tubes. And, as the info from Telefunken's website says (quoted in post #131) and as I understand it, the Black Diamond's DNA is JJ regardless of whether or not Telefunken Electroakoustic ("TE" from now on) had any input or offered standards for JJ to meet in manufacturing. TE apparently does the testing, vetting and branding, but that's it.

So what I have is a "super" JJ tube of sorts, with a different sound than the JJ ECC803Gs High-Performance tubes that have been my reference (or perhaps put better, "point of comparison"). And so far, they're the only tubes I've used that made any headway with taming the sound of bright CDs without messing with my C2300's tone controls. The switch to Transparent Plus ICs from Kimber Hero for the CD player has made a difference as well. The CDs are still too bright, but that's a limitation of the CDs themselves. And, maybe it makes sense that TE would partner with JJ, since, according to a description on Tube Depot's website, the ECC803Gs "provides a forward sounding, full-bodied low end response with a weighty, dynamic midrange easily compared to the Telefunken ECC803s." I haven't heard the originals, of course, but reviews/comments I've seen elsewhere make the same comparison, and the majority are favorable.

If nothing else, I seem to have confirmed that warmer tubes work best in my setup. The JJ ECC803Gs is the warmest tube I've found. I really don't want to be a tube chaser, and hadn't intended to buy any more, but I was thinking about giving Sovteks a whirl. But that's sheer curiosity at this point, nothing more, as I don't think the Sovteks will be as warm as the JJs.
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Last edited by prepress; 10-20-2016 at 05:05 PM.
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  #136  
Old 10-20-2016, 05:10 PM
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I really don't want to be a tube chaser, and hadn't intended to buy any more, but I was thinking about giving Sovteks a whirl. But that's sheer curiosity at this point, nothing more, as I don't think the Sovteks will be as warm as the JJs.
Charles.......Want it or not, you are becoming a tube roller. Chasing the sound of particular tubes is what keeps a tube roller rolling. .
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  #137  
Old 10-22-2016, 06:57 AM
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Charles.......Want it or not, you are becoming a tube roller. Chasing the sound of particular tubes is what keeps a tube roller rolling. .
And that, as a wave of melancholy comes over me this AM, is the problem. I'm now chasing sound, not listening to music. The last time I would say I listened to music or enjoyed a DVD w/o distraction was during the initial run with the JJs. There are other factors at play (such as schedule demands and other stresses), but as far as the system goes, my tube rolling isn't helping me. Even now, though I like the Mullards pretty well and could see leaving them in the 2300 for an extended period, I'm listening to the sound, and waiting for them to make a mistake, as it were. Maybe I need to put the JJs back in and see if that fixes things; I was thinking about that last night.
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  #138  
Old 10-26-2016, 04:06 PM
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A small update. This past Saturday evening, I re-installed the JJ High-Performance Gold Pin tubes. Sunday evening I had the system on background duty, playing Joey Alexander, Clifford Jordan and a bit of that dreaded '60s stuff while cooking; periodically I'd go into the living room to listen for a bit. Of greatest note, In The Midnight Hour from the Rock 'n Roll Relix CD set didn't hurt my ears, even with my 2300's volume set to the usual 42.

Since the JJs are somewhat warmer than everything else, at first the sound seemed slightly muffled after the Mullards and Black Diamonds. But as I got re-acquainted with the sound that sense mitigated. Indeed, the Clifford Jordan CD (Live at Ethel's) sounded like the Mullards were still in the 2300. So some of this may be recording-dependent, I suppose.

I will also return the WW Stratus to the CD player, and the Shunyata Venom 3s will go back to the TV. The Venom had a subtle darkening effect on the CD player's sound to my ears, not needed with the JJs back in the saddle.
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  #139  
Old 10-28-2016, 03:11 PM
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UPDATE: Last night I finally discovered a CD that even the JJs couldn't quite tame. "People Gotta Move" from Gino Vannelli: The Ultimate Collection was bright even with the JJs and the Venom 3s still on the CD player. I turned the volume down to make it better. Maybe I'll get used to the bright sound, maybe not, but I was listening to music, not sound. That is, until the brightness intruded. But the key is, I wasn't listening for anomalies or problems. a good sign.
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  #140  
Old 10-28-2016, 03:29 PM
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Charles.......The bottom line for all audio systems, especially those of low distortion and sufficient resolution to reveal the mixing and master quality, is the source material, i.e. CD, SACD, LP, digital file, R2R tape, or even cassettes. Garbage in, garbage out. You can change all the tubes, power cords, and interconnects you want. It will never turn a sows ear into a silk purse.
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STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital cable, Sonos Connect, PurePower 2000, Stillpoints, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Wireworld, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario
LIVING ROOM - McIntosh C2300, MC75 (2), MR85, Magnum Dynalab 205, Simaudio MOON Neo 260D-T, Schiit Audio Yggdrasil, Aurender N100H, Shunyata Sigma USB cable, Micro Seiki DD40, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Nakamichi BX-300, Sony 60ES DAT, PS Audio P10, Furutech Flux 50, Sonos Connect, Stillpoints, Wireworld, Kimber, PMC EB1i, JL Audio f113
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