AR REF250 monos

[raidho]

Hi at all,

mati1979: well the Pass are very great. the new serie point 8 is (if possible) better as the xa100.5! (read Passlabs topic)
AB class from AR (tube) is very different vs. transistor AB!
class A sound very fine. (and is very diferent from the sound from Mcintosh!!!)

I can have a pair of Ref250 for a very great price at the end they make me save $$$ vursur the new pass xa100.8!!!

As audiophile I like change setup.
The possibilty direct from importer (not via dealer) make me save much money.
AR ref.250 (pre are too available a 5ref, ref10)
D'agostino stereo but I dont have listen this one with Wilson "lve" and D'agostino dont have a sound so good like a Pass or AR!!! (you pay a lot of money for the name & design)

the REF75 will be enough to drive the Sasha for me too. I dnt know why the dealer say that is not enough.

sound from tube is good, AR make good products but have a tube ampli imply space for the mono (more from a class A, tube to change,....)

sure replace the preampli Pass Xp20 with a REF5se (or a REF10) give me a better sound vs. replace the amplifier!!!

Priaptor I agree with you. the combo Ref10 with Ref75 and Wislson is sure a great sound machine!
The point is tube or not tube!
The REF 75 make too no problem with the fans? replace the original tube
is not a problem for the warranty?
The Ref250 with the REF5se can sound not so good like a REF10 and REF75!
imho the Preampli and Source are the more important "point" in a high end" system!

replace the 100.5 with te 100.8 is for me a good solution but I go pay the .8 much more from the ref250!!

Mcintosh? I'm not a Mc lover but the combo C2500 with the ampli 452 or the 601 are a solution"loved" from a lot of people. Mc is a brand loved or hated - no middle way.
Mcintosh and Wilson ? I dont think is a perfect match but do not know this combination to judge.


I have my system in a living room, not a dedicat room, that is 10 meter long and 6 meter large.

tima: thank you for the fans. I had a clase audio ca m300 with fans and I dont had any problem. if is the same is good.

please opinion over REf250-REF75 (and preampli REF5se/REF10) Mc, D'agostino stereo with Wilson.
anyway Pass is for me a reference.

Thank you

[mati1979]

Originally Posted by raidho

sound from tube is good, AR make good products but have a tube ampli imply space for the mono (more from a class A, tube to change,....)

The point is tube or not tube!

for this reason, my power not is tube now (i play music around 3-4 hrs per day)

i like very much AR sound (more than MC), but now i dont like complicate with system 100% tube.
now, all systems i have heard, the closer to AR sound (for me) is MC with very good amount of power

Krell, MArk L, Pass, are very different sounds in compares with MC and AR

be careful, i see many matches Wilson with MC
try using wilson + mcintosh in google.
maybe more than wilson + pass...

[Priaptor]

Originally Posted by raidho

Hi at all,

mati1979: well the Pass are very great. the new serie point 8 is (if possible) better as the xa100.5! (read Passlabs topic)
AB class from AR (tube) is very different vs. transistor AB!
class A sound very fine. (and is very diferent from the sound from Mcintosh!!!)

I can have a pair of Ref250 for a very great price at the end they make me save $$$ vursur the new pass xa100.8!!!

As audiophile I like change setup.
The possibilty direct from importer (not via dealer) make me save much money.
AR ref.250 (pre are too available a 5ref, ref10)
D'agostino stereo but I dont have listen this one with Wilson "lve" and D'agostino dont have a sound so good like a Pass or AR!!! (you pay a lot of money for the name & design)

the REF75 will be enough to drive the Sasha for me too. I dnt know why the dealer say that is not enough.

sound from tube is good, AR make good products but have a tube ampli imply space for the mono (more from a class A, tube to change,....)

sure replace the preampli Pass Xp20 with a REF5se (or a REF10) give me a better sound vs. replace the amplifier!!!

Priaptor I agree with you. the combo Ref10 with Ref75 and Wislson is sure a great sound machine!
The point is tube or not tube!
The REF 75 make too no problem with the fans? replace the original tube
is not a problem for the warranty?
The Ref250 with the REF5se can sound not so good like a REF10 and REF75!
imho the Preampli and Source are the more important "point" in a high end" system!

replace the 100.5 with te 100.8 is for me a good solution but I go pay the .8 much more from the ref250!!

Mcintosh? I'm not a Mc lover but the combo C2500 with the ampli 452 or the 601 are a solution"loved" from a lot of people. Mc is a brand loved or hated - no middle way.
Mcintosh and Wilson ? I dont think is a perfect match but do not know this combination to judge.


I have my system in a living room, not a dedicat room, that is 10 meter long and 6 meter large.

tima: thank you for the fans. I had a clase audio ca m300 with fans and I dont had any problem. if is the same is good.

please opinion over REf250-REF75 (and preampli REF5se/REF10) Mc, D'agostino stereo with Wilson.
anyway Pass is for me a reference.

Thank you

I share your thoughts regarding the preamp. Yes, if you are going with a REF75, the best it will ever sound is with a pre such as the REF10. I would highly recommend this as a smarter combo for the Sasha than the REF250s with a lesser Pre for about the same bucks. Also, the REF250s will cost much more with every retubing. Also, regardless of what pre you use the REF250s will not perform as well as the REF75.

No issue with using KT150s. I know 5 people including myself who have retubed the REF75 and I now have close to 400 hours on mine with no issues. I know of no one who has issues.

[jpgr4blu]

My preference with Sashas is still the Ref 250. Definitely more grip on the bottom. For those who want a slightly fuller midrange, the Ref 75 is the choice. But to me the difference in grip far exceeds the difference in midrange presentation. To each his own. I can certainly understand anyone being price sensitive. In that regard, the Ref 75 is the best bang for the buck amplifier I have ever heard, Ref 150 is right there too. Ref 250 obviously nowhere near twice as good at more than twice the price but to me--noticeably better with Sashas--better dimensionality, space, objects separated in space and better bottom end grip grip. I know that Nola prefers ref 75 due to its synergy with an astonishingly fast and beautiful midrange that could use a little meat on the bone. The Sasha midrange is just not as fast, but I prefer the overall presentation of all aspects of Sasha to Nola which is why I chose them over Nola. Anyone who makes the opposite choice is not wrong-----chocolate versus vanilla. Hell--they might be right.
As for D'Agostino Momentum stereo amp, I had a broken in version in house for a week and can say that it is easily the best solid state that I have ever heard. I've had McIntosh ss and high end tubes in house (C1000 both) for about 2 years and experimented with all combos of Mac and ARC. My opinion is that if you mix and match you reduce the glory of both brands. For example, Mac stifles ARC's transparency, liquidity and dimensionality in all combos. But if you prefer the more robust grounded and rounded sound of Mac gear which burnishes the edges of much digital making it more palatable--go all Mac.
To get back to Dagostino, I had sworn after listening to Pass, Spectral and many other high end ss, that I could never tolerate a solid state presentation in an amp or preamp. But when I attached the Dagostino to my system, all bets were off. This amp is the closest to the magic of ss that I have ever heard (under 70k). I've heard other exotic ss brands which may equal or surpass the Dag but at almost twice the price or more. I have heard others at twice the price that I do not like as well. I have not asked for an in house audition of those amps because I know I cannot afford them.
I also really like the Lamm hybrid with ARC pre. Completely different than Dag/ARC. I would say ARC/Lamm is sweet and tactile with full low end whereas ARC/ Dag is very close to ARC/ARC. Ok I'm done spouting my personal opinion.

[2fastdriving]

I'm not saying you guys are wrong... Never heard the 250's in my house, but I am not missing anything with my ref75. It is simply excellent, even with bass grip. I couldn't be happier unless I spent a ton more.

Ref5se, ref75, Sasha's... One of the best combinations in audio history in my opinion :-)

[dminches]

Originally Posted by jpgr4blu

<snip>To get back to Dagostino, I had sworn after listening to Pass, Spectral and many other high end ss, that I could never tolerate a solid state presentation in an amp or preamp. But when I attached the Dagostino to my system, all bets were off. This amp is the closest to the magic of ss that I have ever heard (under 70k). I've heard other exotic ss brands which may equal or surpass the Dag but at almost twice the price or more. I have heard others at twice the price that I do not like as well. I have not asked for an in house audition of those amps because I know I cannot afford them. I also really like the Lamm hybrid with ARC pre. Completely different than Dag/ARC. I would say ARC/Lamm is sweet and tactile with full low end whereas ARC/ Dag is very close to ARC/ARC. Ok I'm done spouting my personal opinion.

Great post. Thanks.

Have you listened to the Ayre MX-R mono blocks with your setup? I am curious how that compares.

[Priaptor]

Originally Posted by 2fastdriving

I'm not saying you guys are wrong... Never heard the 250's in my house, but I am not missing anything with my ref75. It is simply excellent, even with bass grip. I couldn't be happier unless I spent a ton more.

Ref5se, ref75, Sasha's... One of the best combinations in audio history in my opinion :-)

Well I have had both the REF250 (for a year and half) and REF75 (since Nov 2013 with a two month overlap) and yes, while certain speakers cannot be driven as well with the REF75, the Sashas are not one of them. Someone posted above their desire for Wilson over Nola, fine, no issues, but to suggest the REF75 runs out of steam or "taps out" on that speaker is just not the case. Not even close. While I once was a Wilson owner, I no longer am, but do like their Sashas and Alexias and listened to both extensively as my buddy sells them and we were pretty shocked with the better balance, coherence and especially the low end punch we obtained out of the REF75 relative to the REF250s on both speakers. While the REF250s are no slouch, they need to be driven much harder to get close to the overall coherence and detail of the REF75 which is effortless at any volume. Yes, he shows the REF75 with the Sophias, but for price purposes not performance.

Plus he wasn't even using the KT150s, which I do with my Nola Concert Grands. One listen to BIG ORCHESTRAL pieces as well as small intimate live acoustics or vocals or whatever you throw at this amazing amp is handled with ease.

It is a hard pill to swallow that such a small amp that is about 1/3 the price of the REF250 can outperform it with most speakers, but it is the case.

[fred69]

Originally Posted by raidho

Hi at all,

mati1979: well the Pass are very great. the new serie point 8 is (if possible) better as the xa100.5! (read Passlabs topic)
AB class from AR (tube) is very different vs. transistor AB!
class A sound very fine. (and is very diferent from the sound from Mcintosh!!!)

I can have a pair of Ref250 for a very great price at the end they make me save $$$ vursur the new pass xa100.8!!!

As audiophile I like change setup.
The possibilty direct from importer (not via dealer) make me save much money.
AR ref.250 (pre are too available a 5ref, ref10)
D'agostino stereo but I dont have listen this one with Wilson "lve" and D'agostino dont have a sound so good like a Pass or AR!!! (you pay a lot of money for the name & design)

the REF75 will be enough to drive the Sasha for me too. I dnt know why the dealer say that is not enough.

sound from tube is good, AR make good products but have a tube ampli imply space for the mono (more from a class A, tube to change,....)

sure replace the preampli Pass Xp20 with a REF5se (or a REF10) give me a better sound vs. replace the amplifier!!!

Priaptor I agree with you. the combo Ref10 with Ref75 and Wislson is sure a great sound machine!
The point is tube or not tube!
The REF 75 make too no problem with the fans? replace the original tube
is not a problem for the warranty?
The Ref250 with the REF5se can sound not so good like a REF10 and REF75!
imho the Preampli and Source are the more important "point" in a high end" system!

replace the 100.5 with te 100.8 is for me a good solution but I go pay the .8 much more from the ref250!!

Mcintosh? I'm not a Mc lover but the combo C2500 with the ampli 452 or the 601 are a solution"loved" from a lot of people. Mc is a brand loved or hated - no middle way.
Mcintosh and Wilson ? I dont think is a perfect match but do not know this combination to judge.


I have my system in a living room, not a dedicat room, that is 10 meter long and 6 meter large.

tima: thank you for the fans. I had a clase audio ca m300 with fans and I dont had any problem. if is the same is good.

please opinion over REf250-REF75 (and preampli REF5se/REF10) Mc, D'agostino stereo with Wilson.
anyway Pass is for me a reference.

Thank you

hi raidho

ARC preamp are very good (REF5SE and REF10) match very well with sasha series 2, it seems that you live in europe ... if you can listen one day a combo: REF 5SE / karan amplifier on Wilson Audio, i think you'll never forget that !
it sounds amazing with a total control of the wilson speakers

[jpgr4blu]

Hi dminches:
I have not heard Ayre monos in my system or with Wilsons. I have heard them in other systems and have always been impressed. I do know of 2 Wilson owners whose opinions I respect who have switched from Ayre to Dag.

[raidho]

Hello,

I dont have a dedicated listen room , my system is in the living room. (around 60m2 (10meter long x 6 large not bad but ..I have a but at the end..)

Ref.250 and others AR are very good that's sure. the point is that have a system with tube need care, place, .....
mati1979 write right

i like very much AR sound (more than MC), but now i dont like complicate with system 100% tube.
now, all systems i have heard, the closer to AR sound (for me) is MC with very good amount of power

mati1979: I see the Alexia with the Pass XS serie and AR as pre and is a great combo. sure more vs. the Mc. sorry, I do is a personal taste but Mc match with speakers like Sonus Faber very good (if this is YOUR soudn taste)

Class A are too not so "symple" like a class D system..BUT the point is :
I will have a great system and at each listening session I want to hear music .... good music / want to enjoy it (=quality of music of course)

Dagostino stereo is a great product sure but you can not deny that the price is high for a "simple" stereo amplifier. I dont have listen the Dag in my room and i dont know if all what you read / hear is true. some is amazing some very "flat sound". The point is the price. Pay for a Dag stereo the same price as a pair of ref250 is a "+" for the Dag. (i dont know the price in Usa but in europa Dag is really overpriced for what offert.)
jpgr4blu with the same price AR ref250 and Dag stereo (new serie =
The first series of dagostino had transformers / electrical part does not live here and have been replaced at least in eurpopa (you know we work with 230v Vs. 120v and certainly plays an important role))
-> I will go with a Dagostino vs. the AR (of course after a session in my room)
The Dag monos are too expensive for the Sasha2. the are priced sooo much more from the speaker and imho have no sense - maybe with the Alexia the monos can be considered.....

If you have the Dag stereo, the AR250 monos at the same price which one is "the choice"?
dminches the Ayre are amazing. I have listen this the Kx-r and the mono Mx-r with Thiel 3.7 and Magico speakers.
The Ayre Mx-r and to the Vx-r are no doubt very very good. expensive? Yes, more from the Dag (for me) shame because they are really very good, good sound, "small", ... (with your premapli and with a AR as premapli)

great SS ampli are sure available on the market: Constellation, FM Acosutics, Soulution!! minus $$$$

others not in Usa present: Accustic Arts and AVM (chef was in Burmester). this two are for me very interesting. great building, super price/perfomance.
Accustic Arts®
AVM Audio - Overview (ovation serie)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSCf59FEnqQ#t=33
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeohyoFYb0U


fred69: you are in europe too?
The ampli Karan are a good match with Wilson I do. the KA s400 or the KA s600 with the right cables is a very good combo.
Karan is not so much expensive (vs Dag and company..) if for you the value in the second hand is important karan is really very difficult to resell (you pay 10k? with a lot of luck you can have 3k.!)

surely if you think the sale of equipment that you do not have yet is not very positive ...

Decision....decision.....

At the end of all I can say the a AR preampli is without doubt a very smart purchase.
ampli: AR - tube ampli - sound good - You will have a "hot" equipment ? ready to pay for this brunt a very good/amazing sound?
Dag stereo: well yes, is a good solution -> intelligent? I dont know.
Pass class A: for Me the new point 8 is a great ampli. here too monos, "hot" place but not so much like the Arc.

Others? I dont know......

Your point of view?

Thank you.