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  #1  
Old 07-06-2018, 08:49 PM
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Maks Maks is offline
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Default KirmussAudio Cleaner

Anyone seen this thing? I've seen it advertised via email from a few stores I've purchased from online. I'm happy with my KLaudio so I'm not looking to purchase this, just wondering if anyone has seen one in the flesh or knows someone who bought one. IMO it looks kind of like a Fisher Price product, not as sleek as the KLaudio or the Audio Desk machines. The lack of a fan for drying seems to be a setback, but I understand not everyone has a few grand to spend on the more expensive cleaners out there.

Last edited by Maks; 07-06-2018 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:45 PM
Poisonm Poisonm is offline
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Lots of claims by the maker including about everybody else getting it wrong except him - seems a little odd.
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Old 07-07-2018, 11:40 PM
mulveling mulveling is online now
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It potentially fills a good slot in the market, but I don't think KL Audio and Audio Desk owners need to worry about getting one. Agree it looks like a toy by comparison, and the whole "I got this right and everyone else is wrong" attitude is generally a big red flag.
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Old 07-08-2018, 12:21 AM
Poisonm Poisonm is offline
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Doesn’t present itself as a total solution sans drying feature.
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Old 07-08-2018, 04:44 AM
tima tima is offline
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Fremer on the Kirmuss machine at Analogplanet.

Ime a total approach does not require a fan for drying. Records cleaned in a solution that includes IPA and a wetting agent air dry just fine. One key is to keep total disolved solids very low, say 0005 ppm or less; another is filtering, cf. here.

Last edited by tima; 07-08-2018 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:15 AM
Poisonm Poisonm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tima View Post
Fremer on the Kirmuss machine at Analogplanet.

Ime a total approach does not require a fan for drying. Records cleaned in a solution that includes IPA and a wetting agent air dry just fine. One key is to keep total disolved solids very low, say 0005 ppm or less; another is filtering, cf. here.
Have experimented with the KL Audio with and without filter units and while I don’t know how fine the filter medium is, don’t hear a difference though. Personally I much prefer not to involve chemicals in the washing process and if I have to, will clean it another cycle with just water to insure no residue is left behind. Do you use some specialty water for your cleaning? Fremer doesn’t sound very convinced in that article if I recall correctly.
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:07 AM
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I’m very interested in a soon to be released ultrasonic RCM called Degritter. Nice looking, better priced than KLAudio and Audiodesk and looks to be very effective. Still in “Kickstarter” phase. Company/designers all young dudes. Check out their website/Facebook page. They use 120kHz US transducers.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:29 AM
tima tima is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poisonm View Post
Have experimented with the KL Audio with and without filter units and while I don’t know how fine the filter medium is, don’t hear a difference though. Personally I much prefer not to involve chemicals in the washing process and if I have to, will clean it another cycle with just water to insure no residue is left behind. Do you use some specialty water for your cleaning? Fremer doesn’t sound very convinced in that article if I recall correctly.
The KLAudio machine uses only water, so presumably the only thing removed by a filter would be debris from records. So records cleaned without a filter and with a filter would likely not exhibit much difference until one tested using a tank after many records are cleaned without a filter. Or so I speculate.

Fremer uses an Audio Desk, so that's what he uses for comparisons.

I used NERL Reagent Grade water - bought in 5 gallon boxes - for many years when primarily using my Loricraft PRC-3 point-nozzle machine. Horizontal cleaners require time with one or more different cleaning agents sitting on the record (I used AIVS and Walker's Prelude) and these must be thoroughly rinsed. You're somewhat fighting gravity, and need to agigitate the solution to keep removed dirt from settling back into the grooves before vacuuming it off. I also tried the NERL water in my DIY USC. It works quite well but it is expensive and I honestly cannot say there is a sonic difference between it and distilled water.

The thing with vertical machines such as KLAudio or Audio Desk (I also have one of those) and similar designs without filters is how often the tank is changed. The Audio Desk has a somewhat passive filter, and it does get dirty over time, but I'm thinking by the time it shows dirt it has gone past the point where the water needs changing. Filtering does make a difference however. With a rotating record in the tank, dirt does not settle easily. That's where the filter offers benefit.

If you look at the thread I referenced above about my DIY machine, Part II shows a comparison of both water and filters - it is obvious the filter is working as it shows plenty of dirt and the filtered water looks very close to new water.

If I were using an KLA or ADS or similar unit without a filter, I'd change the tank maybe every 10 records or so.

If you read articles about ultrasonic cleaning, not necessarily for records, it seems pretty well accepted that having some sort of surfactant in the water is commonplace and recognized as giving superior results over water alone. The trick is to get to keep total dissolved solids in the tank very low.

The point of all this is really about air drying. There is no problem air drying a clean record. IPA does not leave a residue and if Ilfotol (wetting agent used in developing film photography) leaves a residue it is undetectable.

The frequency at which the transducers operate is another factor: higher frequencies are more effective at removing smaller particles though not as effective as lower frequencies at removing larger ones. Lower frequency cavitation bubbles are larger but explode with more intense energy.
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Old 07-09-2018, 03:10 PM
Poisonm Poisonm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tima View Post
The KLAudio machine uses only water, so presumably the only thing removed by a filter would be debris from records. So records cleaned without a filter and with a filter would likely not exhibit much difference until one tested using a tank after many records are cleaned without a filter. Or so I speculate.

Fremer uses an Audio Desk, so that's what he uses for comparisons.

I used NERL Reagent Grade water - bought in 5 gallon boxes - for many years when primarily using my Loricraft PRC-3 point-nozzle machine. Horizontal cleaners require time with one or more different cleaning agents sitting on the record (I used AIVS and Walker's Prelude) and these must be thoroughly rinsed. You're somewhat fighting gravity, and need to agigitate the solution to keep removed dirt from settling back into the grooves before vacuuming it off. I also tried the NERL water in my DIY USC. It works quite well but it is expensive and I honestly cannot say there is a sonic difference between it and distilled water.

The thing with vertical machines such as KLAudio or Audio Desk (I also have one of those) and similar designs without filters is how often the tank is changed. The Audio Desk has a somewhat passive filter, and it does get dirty over time, but I'm thinking by the time it shows dirt it has gone past the point where the water needs changing. Filtering does make a difference however. With a rotating record in the tank, dirt does not settle easily. That's where the filter offers benefit.

If you look at the thread I referenced above about my DIY machine, Part II shows a comparison of both water and filters - it is obvious the filter is working as it shows plenty of dirt and the filtered water looks very close to new water.

If I were using an KLA or ADS or similar unit without a filter, I'd change the tank maybe every 10 records or so.

If you read articles about ultrasonic cleaning, not necessarily for records, it seems pretty well accepted that having some sort of surfactant in the water is commonplace and recognized as giving superior results over water alone. The trick is to get to keep total dissolved solids in the tank very low.

The point of all this is really about air drying. There is no problem air drying a clean record. IPA does not leave a residue and if Ilfotol (wetting agent used in developing film photography) leaves a residue it is undetectable.

The frequency at which the transducers operate is another factor: higher frequencies are more effective at removing smaller particles though not as effective as lower frequencies at removing larger ones. Lower frequency cavitation bubbles are larger but explode with more intense energy.
Thanks for the detailed explanation . We did test both the KL Audio units over time and accumulated washes. I have both KLA and AD units and tend to wash the records on the AD unit and then to the KLA unit if the records needs a lot of attention to insure there are no chemical residues left over.
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  #10  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:37 AM
tima tima is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poisonm View Post
Thanks for the detailed explanation . We did test both the KL Audio units over time and accumulated washes. I have both KLA and AD units and tend to wash the records on the AD unit and then to the KLA unit if the records needs a lot of attention to insure there are no chemical residues left over.
Thanks. What you're doing makes sense to me: wash in the ADS; rinse and dry in the KLA.
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