Where do you cross your sub(s) with full range speakers?

[Grasshopper]

I'm in the midst of trying to dial-in the sweet spot for my dual f113 fathoms.

Now with an active crossover (MEN220) in the mix, I'm hoping to gain wisdom here on AA in what has worked for you.

My B&W 800's do pretty well on their own, but I'd love to make the most of my active crossover and dual subs.

JL Audio recommends crossing at something like 85hz (which seems high).

I actually started at 32hz and moved into up to 36hz last night.

I was really impressed with the sound until I turned off my amp and heard what little my subs were adding to the equation. Most of the slam impact, etc. was coming out of the B&W 800s, so I was pleasantly surprised.

With the mains "off" via my amp off I decided to see how much content was really playing below 36hz, and I didn't encounter much sound even coming out of the fathoms (making the JL's seem completely unnecessary).

Crossing higher seems like a better use of dual fathoms, but I don't want to step on the 800's toes either.

What do y'all with one or more subs do along with your capable full range speakers?

[bigblue]

You can find the optimum crossover using a microphone and software (f ex RTA Audio). Then you will see how the speakers and subbs interact. By adjusting volume, crossover and phase to a combo that brings you to the flattest transitions between the two, you should be able to get them to play together nicely. My guess would be a crossover somewhere between 35 and 50 Hz.

[jdandy]

Jason.......Something I forgot to mention in our subwoofer correspondence, after you have run the ARO setup on each subwoofer be sure to set the subwoofer crossover point well above the point at which you are setting the MEN220. In this manner only the MEN220 will impact the crossover point. So, if your MEN220 crossover point is 36Hz the the subwoofer crossover should probably be set at 80Hz. If you raise the crossover point on the MEN220, then correspondingly raise the crossover point on the subwoofers to ensure no conflict.

I use a JL Audio f113 with my PMC EB1i floorstanding speakers in the living room system. The EB1i's use a transmission line wave guide with the 10 inch woofers and have useful output to 20Hz. Despite that performance level the f113 subwoofer still aids in the firmness and timbrel accuracy of the lowest frequencies. I no longer have a MEN220 as the primary crossover so my f113 is set to 42Hz crossover.

Also, don't overlook the importance of the Phase Control knob, not the phase switch. The Phase Control setting of the knob adjusts the launch time of the subwoofer cone in relation to the launch time of the main speaker's woofers. The idea is to get all the low frequency drivers to launch simultaneously, in other words, in phase.

[crwilli]

Jason, if using the MEN220 HP/LP filters - crossover functionality, Don't forget to reverse the polarity of your mains per the manual. Craig

[Grasshopper]

Thanks Dan.

Yes, I set the Fathom's crossover at the highest setting so the MEN's crossover would prevail.

I plan to dial the subs in phase very soon to make sure they are blending nicely.

I'll keep inching up the crossover on the 220 as well to see the ideal spot.

Originally Posted by jdandy

Jason.......Something I forgot to mention in our subwoofer correspondence, after you have run the ARO setup on each subwoofer be sure to set the subwoofer crossover point well above the point at which you are setting the MEN220. In this manner only the MEN220 will impact the crossover point. So, if your MEN220 crossover point is 36Hz the the subwoofer crossover should probably be set at 80Hz. If you raise the crossover point on the MEN220, then correspondingly raise the crossover point on the subwoofers to ensure no conflict.

I use a JL Audio f113 with my PMC EB1i floorstanding speakers in the living room system. The EB1i's use a transmission line wave guide with the 10 inch woofers and have useful output to 20Hz. Despite that performance level the f113 subwoofer still aids in the firmness and timbrel accuracy of the lowest frequencies. I no longer have a MEN220 as the primary crossover so my f113 is set to 42Hz crossover.

Also, don't overlook the importance of the Phase Control knob, not the phase switch. The Phase Control setting of the knob adjusts the launch time of the subwoofer cone in relation to the launch time of the main speaker's woofers. The idea is to get all the low frequency drivers to launch simultaneously, in other words, in phase.

[Grasshopper]

Craig,

I am using the HP/LP filters on the MEN220, but I'm drawing a blank on reversing the polarity on the main speakers (unless you are talking about reversing the polarity to dial in he phase knob, and then swapping the speaker cables back to positive-positive, negative-negative once ideal phase is established).

Is there something I missed?

Originally Posted by crwilli

Jason, if using the MEN220 HP/LP filters - crossover functionality, Don't forget to reverse the polarity of your mains per the manual. Craig

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by bigblue

You can find the optimum crossover using a microphone and software (f ex RTA Audio). Then you will see how the speakers and subbs interact. By adjusting volume, crossover and phase to a combo that brings you to the flattest transitions between the two, you should be able to get them to play together nicely. My guess would be a crossover somewhere between 35 and 50 Hz.

Thanks for the suggestion. That RTA Audio software looks pretty sweet (and intimidating). Dialing subs in the right way seems a little daunting----

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Craig,

I am using the HP/LP filters on the MEN220, but I'm drawing a blank on reversing the polarity on the main speakers (unless you are talking about reversing the polarity to dial in he phase knob, and then swapping the speaker cables back to positive-positive, negative-negative once ideal phase is established).

Is there something I missed?

If I remember correctly, the manual says to reverse the plus / minus connections on your main speakers when using the crossover function.

From page 11

Loudspeaker Connections:
The following Loudspeaker Connection instructions are based on the Crossover Settings outlined in the Setup Section in this Owner’s Manual. Refer to pages 19 and 20 for additional information.
13. Refer to the Owner’s Manuals supplied with the Power Amplifier and Loudspeakers for informa- tion on connecting Power Amplifiers 1 and 2 to the Low Frequency Section of the Loudspeakers.
When the Electronic Crossover Circuitry in the MEN220 is active. It is important the sound coming from the Low Frequency Section of the Loudspeaker be in “Acoustical Phase” with the sound from the High Frequency Section of the Loudspeaker. The connec- tions between Power Amplifier 3 and the High Fre- quency Section of the Loudspeakers need the electri- cal connection phase reversed at the Loudspeaker High Frequency Section Terminals. This reversed phase connection will achieve the correct “Acoustical Phase” from the Loudspeaker System.
14. Connect COM (- negative) terminal of Amplifier 3
to the + (positive) terminal of the High Frequency Section of the Loudspeaker. Then connect 8Ω (+ positive) terminal of Amplifier 3 to the - (nega- tive) terminal of the High Frequency Section of the Loudspeaker.

Craig

[Grasshopper]

Craig,

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression page 11 of the manual is talking about using the active crossover of the MEN220 in a bi-amping configuration with one pair of loudspeakers and two power amplifiers.

In this case, reversing the phase makes sense since you don't have a phase knob on the bass drivers like you do on a sub.

On page 12, the section is titled "How to Connect MEN220 With a Subwoofer"

I that section, it just suggest you hook up the loudspeakers in accordance with the power amp/speakers manuals.

mcintosh makes killer gear, but their manuals are NOT user friendly.

As I said, I could be wrong, but I'm thinking dialing subs in with the MEN220 is a completely different setup (and you deal with getting the sub in phase by setting the delay in the MEN220, as well as using the phase knob on the subwoofer). No need to swap the polarity of the cables.

Originally Posted by crwilli

If I remember correctly, the manual says to reverse the plus / minus connections on your main speakers when using the crossover function.

From page 11

Loudspeaker Connections:
The following Loudspeaker Connection instructions are based on the Crossover Settings outlined in the Setup Section in this Owner’s Manual. Refer to pages 19 and 20 for additional information.
13. Refer to the Owner’s Manuals supplied with the Power Amplifier and Loudspeakers for informa- tion on connecting Power Amplifiers 1 and 2 to the Low Frequency Section of the Loudspeakers.
When the Electronic Crossover Circuitry in the MEN220 is active. It is important the sound coming from the Low Frequency Section of the Loudspeaker be in “Acoustical Phase” with the sound from the High Frequency Section of the Loudspeaker. The connec- tions between Power Amplifier 3 and the High Fre- quency Section of the Loudspeakers need the electri- cal connection phase reversed at the Loudspeaker High Frequency Section Terminals. This reversed phase connection will achieve the correct “Acoustical Phase” from the Loudspeaker System.
14. Connect COM (- negative) terminal of Amplifier 3
to the + (positive) terminal of the High Frequency Section of the Loudspeaker. Then connect 8Ω (+ positive) terminal of Amplifier 3 to the - (nega- tive) terminal of the High Frequency Section of the Loudspeaker.

Craig

[crwilli]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Craig,

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression page 11 of the manual is talking about using the active crossover of the MEN220 in a bi-amping configuration with one pair of loudspeakers and two power amplifiers.

In this case, reversing the phase makes sense since you don't have a phase knob on the bass drivers like you do on a sub.

On page 12, the section is titled "How to Connect MEN220 With a Subwoofer"

I that section, it just suggest you hook up the loudspeakers in accordance with the power amp/speakers manuals.

mcintosh makes killer gear, but their manuals are NOT user friendly.

As I said, I could be wrong, but I'm thinking dialing subs in with the MEN220 is a completely different setup (and you deal with getting the sub in phase by setting the delay in the MEN220, as well as using the phase knob on the subwoofer). No need to swap the polarity of the cables.

Page 11 speaks to the crossover function. Page 12 speaks to how to connect your sub irrespective of the crossover function.

If you are using the crossover function of the MEN220 to set a high pass signal for the front mains, the manual is telling you to reverse the polarity from your amp to those speakers.