ARC is freakin expensive.

[Sea music]

Originally Posted by Mouse

How far apart is foundation from reference?
Is this a rule of diminishing returns and they are pretty close?
Or are they completely in different leagues?

I won't be able to hear both in the same room, unless I see them again at RMAF again.

I honestly do not know. I have demo the Reference 75se in my home. I very
much liked what I heard. I had to run it thru my Mc2600 preamp to use the
Dac in the preamp. I think there is even a larger difference in preamps. I have
listened to all Arc setups in the store. Again very good sound. Unfortunately
my local dealer does not have the Foundation series in stock for demo. I went
all Mcintosh because at the time it was a large jump to Ref6, Ref75se combo.

If I was starting over I would take a series look at the Foundation amp and preamp. Are the Reference series in a different league?They are to the person who has upgraded
the rest of their system. Keep in mind how much it costs to balance the rest
Of the system to get all that a Reference series has to offer. For me I feel I
have a good cost balance with the Mcintosh. I am a little afraid to “borrow”
a Ref6 as it might cause an expensive chain reaction!!

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by Mouse

Great? Ok, better than the competition here.
One ARC system on display. The other guy that carries ARC doesn't actually have ARC in the showroom.
Plenty of guidance, but without the pieces in my face and playing sounds for my ears it's all irrelevant.
his guidance on ARC wasn't no refunds, it's just on the receipt copy, "No refunds on special orders." I bought something else before that they don't stock and he offered to take it back if I don't like it because he could use it in their showroom, I didn't chat about returns on special orders.
The dealer is great except he's small with the following problems: limited showroom, no returns.

I live in Denver, CO.
I have Soundings which I prefer lately and I have Listen Up.
From my experience, my guy at Soundings is more knowledgeable, less opinionated, better at arranging demos with what they have, and offers loaners on nearly anything they sell. I was told to try new XLR cables by some on this forum to troubleshoot noise, they took a pair off of their flagship system because I wanted to hear Nordost. They've been willing to demo in-home a few pieces I've wanted which I bought. They troubleshooted partly some of my noise problems before I bought a thing. These guys LOVE music, would let me sit on their couch for an hour demoing their stuff, they enjoy to demo so much that it's me running out of time, instead of them getting bored.

By contrast Listen Up to this day still will not demo any cable, even worse I had a defective XLR cable and they wouldn't loan me one while mine was getting sent off for repair under warranty. I've asked to demo some subs and out of three times I've never had a proper demo there. In home demos are de facto forbidden. I've asked a few times and they said ok that they will, but they never did because they didn't want to disconnect the power supply, they wouldn't haul a sub. I was told all the noise I was getting was normal, while AA and Soundings taught me how to eliminate it. To this day I've never heard the MB100 despite asking several times. To make matters worse I caught my Listen Up salesman trying to photograph the serial numbers on the SVS subs I didn't buy from him, because he wouldn't demo them. Listen Up is a huge store here, and they have a lot of good brands. While you've read my rant there is plenty of good stuff to say about the company too. They'll even return a special order.

Best Buy? They're kind of a sad joke in the audiophile industry. They gave me a taste of Mc and SF, and just as quickly they lost my interest. $100 bucks for them to come to the house to make recommendations. Against my better judgement I pay $100 and the guy shows up, smart as a whip and takes his time with me, he promises a list of products that match what I'm looking for. It never happens. I can't email him or call him as I don't have his business card. I go back in a month later and no one knows who he is. I lose $100 and get nothing out the deal.

I'm very familiar with all those guys. I know the ListenUp folks going back to the late 70's when Rod from Soundings still worked there.

I trained the Soundings guys in Sumiko Masters when they first came on board as a Vienna Acoustics dealer. Wonderful people!

Regardless of the dealer, I would suggest that you explain what you would like to accomplish. Sounds like this has happened at Soundings already.

If you want something outside their policies, ask them and tell them why. Very few can read your mind. Perhaps they have a way to help. If they don't at least it won't happen because of a misunderstanding. This might be your next step.

There is also another ARC dealer in Colorado though I do not know what Rick has on display. A call to his shop in Ft Collins might be worth the effort.

I also believe there are some good dealers in your area though you haven't yet visited them all.

FYI, the Foundation Series may be one of the best values in audio today.

As always, ymmv.

Bill
Disclaimer: I work for Wilson Audio

[Mikado463]

Bill, again, your last sentence speaks volumes .........

[vintage_tube]

Last trip to my dealer & he had the foundation pieces pushing Sabrina speakers. Can you say -- heaven. At $16K for the amp and pre (and $7.5K for the phono) with $15.9K Sabrina and some moderate cabling could sure make someone extremely happy. I was impressed.



Best Sirs,

Bob

[jpgr4blu]

I went from the high end Mac tube system, the C1100 and , at the time, the top of the line Mc2102 tube amp to an all ARC system. I made that transition one component at a time and can say with some degree of confidence---the combination of Mac/ARC is worse by far than an all ARC system. That is, the improvement will be slight with one ARC component and one Mac component. If you prefer the Mac sound--warm and rounded--stick with it. If you prefer greater transparency and more texture and color but not as warm and rounded--go all ARC. If you purchase one ARC component at a time in a Mac system, start with an ARC preamp which will give you an idea of what the ARC sound is all about, but don't leave the system there as you will be hearing even half of the ARC peamp's potential. When you add an ARC amp to the system the improvement is a sea change.

[bigblue]

Originally Posted by jpgr4blu

If you prefer the Mac sound--warm and rounded--stick with it. If you prefer greater transparency and more texture and color but not as warm and rounded--go all ARC.

And when you want an ARC with a Hemi V8 under the hood you could go for Gryphon
I enjoyed ARC for many years with my Sonus Faber speakers. It is a great combo. But the nerve and presence the Gryphon added to the mix is addictive IMO.

[oddeophile]

Like everything that’s a personal opinion

[bigblue]

Originally Posted by oddeophile

Like everything that’s a personal opinion

Sure, that's why I wrote "IMO".

[Mouse]

Originally Posted by jpgr4blu

I went from the high end Mac tube system, the C1100 and , at the time, the top of the line Mc2102 tube amp to an all ARC system. I made that transition one component at a time and can say with some degree of confidence---the combination of Mac/ARC is worse by far than an all ARC system. That is, the improvement will be slight with one ARC component and one Mac component. If you prefer the Mac sound--warm and rounded--stick with it. If you prefer greater transparency and more texture and color but not as warm and rounded--go all ARC. If you purchase one ARC component at a time in a Mac system, start with an ARC preamp which will give you an idea of what the ARC sound is all about, but don't leave the system there as you will be hearing even half of the ARC peamp's potential. When you add an ARC amp to the system the improvement is a sea change.

Very interesting.
I was under the impression of just the opposite, but I've never had the pleasure you've had of owning both; nor have I been able to hear both in the same room with the same speakers. The ARC I've heard was warmer and fuller. Mc was more clear, colored, and somehow lifeless by comparison. I'd like to hear more comparisons of house sound/qualities between the two brands.
I still like Mc, I've just heard two ARC systems that really moved me.

[Mouse]

Originally Posted by vintage_tube

Last trip to my dealer & he had the foundation pieces pushing Sabrina speakers. Can you say -- heaven. At $16K for the amp and pre (and $7.5K for the phono) with $15.9K Sabrina and some moderate cabling could sure make someone extremely happy. I was impressed.



Best Sirs,

Bob

It's good to know Foundation is a good system, it's more or less in my range. My dealer's opinion was that the integrated sounded a lot better than the entry level amp (he's not impressed at all), or something like that. I don't remember the model numbers though. I'm apprehensive of the integrated as one small change obsoletes the system, whether it be a dac or wattage. ARC's website does a poor job of photographing the rear of every model so I can see the inputs; it may not have inputs I'm looking for, or inputs I'm looking for in the future.