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Old 01-01-2021, 05:50 PM
Gershon Gershon is offline
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Default So Flash is dead...MB100...MS500?

The official demise of Adobe Flash reminded me that's what I use to interface with my MB100.

Despite the somewhat flammable subject line, I'd like to keep the discussion focused on what should the life expectancy be for a $6000+ McIntosh streamer?

My MB100 was introduced in late 2014. The MS500 was introduced mid 2018. They both use the same app, which has had exactly 2 iOS updates: one in 2014 and one in 2017. They also both use Flash for the web interface.

I know if you ask anyone at McIntosh, the firmware/software/update answer will always be: what problems are you experiencing that make you want an update? I guess my generic answer is that, because my MB100 is now a ticking time bomb, and I guess my expectations at that price point are different than McIntosh's.

I bought my MB100 for system integration reasons, as well as expectations from the history of McIntosh. Maybe McIntosh knows that already, and counts on it - meaning, they don't necessarily need to focus on this area of concern, since people will just buy the newest thing from them.

Anyways, hoping to be educated with some meaningful discussion.

Last edited by Gershon; 01-04-2021 at 07:17 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-01-2021, 07:45 PM
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This is a parallel subject to why I bought a Synology NAS rather than any other brand; they make great hardware (as do other companies), but they ALSO do software very well. With McIntosh, it’s all about the hardware; software be dammed. Cases in point, the MS300 & MS750.
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Old 01-02-2021, 07:43 AM
kurt1970 kurt1970 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gershon View Post
what should the life expectancy be for a $6000+ McIntosh streamer?
Often the more expensive something is, the lower the life expectancy as a result of a much less sold items.
I've a Naim NDX streamer since +5y, but also a 350€ SONOS Connect since 14 years. The SONOS app gets regular updates, is as good as bug free and is state of the art. Obviously, if you look at the number of SONOS units sold, they cannot afford to let the customer down. Next to that the software development cost is the same if you make an update for 1m devices or a couple of 1000 devices. Porting the application from Flash to another technology is a significant application rewrite. This is something companies are looking at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gershon View Post
I know if you ask anyone at McIntosh, the firmware/software/update answer will always be: what problems are you experiencing that make you want an update? I guess my generic answer is that, because my MB100 is now a ticking time bomb, and I guess my expectations at that price point are different than McIntosh's.
This is correct. The McIntosh approach is based on the idea "If something works today and you don't change anything, there's no reason why it shouldn't work tomorrow", which is correct. However, Flash faced several security vulnerabilities. As long as it was supported those issues got fixed. So yes, it will still work tomorrow, but you can be exposed to some security leaks which will not be fixed anymore, causing potential serious consequences. Next is that if you do an OS update of your system, it's not guaranteed Flash will still work.

Last edited by kurt1970; 01-02-2021 at 07:46 AM.
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  #4  
Old 01-02-2021, 01:48 PM
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I feel your pain.

What should be the lifespan of any streamer?

Ask somebody who owned an Olive product.

It’s not like an amplifier or other analog device that is not connected to a service through the internet.

That’s why I’ve never purchased a streamer from any manufacturer.

McIntosh makes great preamps, amps, speakers, etc.

But they outsource a lot of their digital processing to other companies.

The MS 750/300 is based on an Escient Fireball.

MS 500 and MB 100 are based on an Autonomic Controls Product

Why ANYONE would use flash in a 2014 or 2018 product is more than ignorant. It’s stupid.

At least ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever. Cut your losses and run.
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  #5  
Old 01-02-2021, 04:53 PM
Gershon Gershon is offline
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All good points here. Especially about history repeating itself:

The MS350 and MS700 were developed by Escient, which was acquired by D&M Holdings, and then Escient was discontinued altogether.

The MB100 and MS500 were developed by Autonomic Controls, which was acquired by SnapAV.

Here's the very unusual twist to this whole thread - it seems Autonomic has a new website, or at least one I've never seen before. They have a blog on the website, and there's a new post from dec 19 that details how flash has been discontinued and users should update to their new html5 web interface!!?!

https://autonomic.biz/blog/flash-web...ed-with-html5/

So, now seeing this, when will our MB100 and MS500's be getting this new html interface? I know, I know, I need to lower my expectations for these McIntosh products.
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  #6  
Old 01-02-2021, 06:13 PM
Gershon Gershon is offline
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quick update: it looks like Autonomic was reacquired by the original CEO, and is an independent company again.
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  #7  
Old 01-02-2021, 10:07 PM
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I hope Autonomic takes care of ALL their customers.

When the MS 750/300 was developed both McIntosh and Escient were owned by D&M which was owned by Bain Capital.
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

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McIntosh MAC 4300v
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  #8  
Old 01-02-2021, 10:38 PM
Gershon Gershon is offline
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I know there's a dedicated group of people who wish they could modify the VxWorks OS on the MS 300/750 so that they could access the Gracenote database...not keeping up with this simple functionality is somewhat baffling on McIntosh's part. Why not put a post out there for one of the original Escient developers to just get this function working again, vs risk all the negative feelings, etc? What a huge opportunity this could be, and would do a lot to change the perception of McIntosh digital offerings....I know it's easy to be an armchair quarterback, but with Escient no longer existing, there's gotta be a reasonable way at this point...

Anyways, it looks like Autonomic is hard at work with the firmware updates, besides just the html5 web interface. Since they reacquired in May 2020, they've been busy addressing the firmware updates, which haven't happened in 5 years. To answer my own question earlier in the thread, here's what the autonomic blog says new firmware does (aside from the voice integrations, the rest of the updates are significant and substantial)...now I'm salivating for the new firmware:

RELEASE 6.1.20201216.0, December 2020
New features
Replace Flash Web UI

RELEASE 6.1.20201201.0, November 2020
General software improvements
Improve NAS compatibility
Scheduling
Improve preset reliability in Tunebridge schedules
SiriusXM
Protect other services from inactivity timeout
Spotify
Improve reliability when moving from one track to the next
Improve reliability loading user playlists
Improve handling for account used elsewhere
Tidal
Improve re-authentication process

RELEASE 6.1.20201022.0, October 2020
New features
Add Amazon Alexa integration (see the setup guide here, requires a TuneBridge account)
Add Google Home integration (see the setup guide here, requires a TuneBridge account)
General software improvements
Improve USB DAC configuration and playback reliability
Improve support for KP-6 All Off
Improve device output configuration
Improve performance and reliability in systems with multiple streamers and amps
Improve MRAD feedback
Improve performance while recalling presets
Improve reliability of new control connections directly after boot
Improve over-volume protection
Scheduling
Improve schedule reliability
Improve schedule configuration page
Turn off zones at end of schedule
Crestron
Improve stability and reliability while browsing
Local content
Improve cover art performance for local content
Improve m4a format playback reliability
Support newer SMB protocols for mounting NAS drives
Support NAS paths with spaces
Amazon Music
Fix for playback of tracks with certain special characters in title or artist
iHeartRadio
Fix authentication issues
Pandora
Improve stations list update logic
RADIO.COM
Enable Skip Next/Previous for podcasts
SiriusXM
Improve playback reliability
Spotify
Improve Spotify playlist handling
Reload content of updated playlists
Fix issue switching between Spotify connect and browsed Spotify content
Improve browse reliability
Improve reliability when switching between Spotify Connect and native playback
Improve error handling while loading user's saved content
Ensure content is loaded in language appropriate to the user account
Allow login through control client
Tidal
Replace user/password login with OAuth login (see here for more information)
TuneIn
Fix playback auto-resume on power cycle
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  #9  
Old 01-04-2021, 07:27 PM
Gershon Gershon is offline
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I've been told now by a few dealers, McIntosh will not be updating the MB100 or MS500 anymore...but keep in mind the source of my info is the dealer, which can only go so far I guess, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt for now...

I'm fortunate enough to have 2 MB100s - I got them blindly, as I needed streamers for my 2 different McIntosh systems and figured, how bad could they be, it's McIntosh built....anyways...I just cancelled my order for 2 MS500s which were going to replace these MB100s, as I was under the impression that the MS500 was getting regular updates, or at least there were plans to update it.

So to wrap things up, the answer to my original post here, is we should expect around 2 years for updates for a McIntosh digital product. I guess I don't see why the dealer would steer me wrong - I was going to order 2 units from them, so there's that to think about.

I know not many people have these units, or there would be more discussion here - that alone is telling to me as well.

Anyways, I hope someone finds this info helpful, but I'd love to be proven wrong on some of these assessments, for every owner's benefit.

Cheers,
Gershon
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  #10  
Old 01-04-2021, 10:05 PM
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W9TR W9TR is offline
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I would write a nice letter to Charlie Randall, certified, explaining that Autonomic Controls is taking care of their customers but that you haven’t heard anything yet from McIntosh so you’re curious as to what’s going to happen as Flash will NOT be supported and will go away at the next iOS and Android update.

See what comes back.
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
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